BOARD OF WATER SUPPLY
COUNTY OF MAUI
PUBLIC TESTIMONY RE STREAM RESTORATION


Taken at Keanae School, Keanae, Maui, Hawaii, 
commencing at 7:00 p.m. on August 15, 2000, conducted 
by David Craddick, Director.

REPORTED BY:   LYNANN NICELY, RPR/RMR/CSR #354
IWADO COURT REPORTERS, INC.

MR. CRADDICK:  I want to get going here and 
we have John has a sign-up sheet.  Everybody who 
hasn't put their name on there, if they want to talk, 
if they can sign up on that sheet.  And would anybody 
want to open our meeting with a prayer here?  Do we 
have any volunteers for that?   If not, I'll do it.  
Okay.

Dear Lord, thanks for getting us all together 
for this meeting and have it so we can get everybody's 
ideas on this stream restoration issue and hopefully 
we'll see something come out of it as a result of this 
meeting.  Amen. 

What we're going to do here, first of all, I'm 
not a stickler for the rules and I want to give 
everybody as much opportunity to talk as they can.  
But the purpose of this meeting is to get information 
from the community on what streams people would like 
to see water back in and getting a priority for them. 

What's made this possible is the board and 
HC&S or A&B have entered into a Memorandum of 
Understanding to where this is one of the priority 
items between them and there is some things that we're 
doing that will make it possible to allow water to go 
back into the streams.  So this is kind of a first 
step meeting to get information to the board to try 
and do that. 

We've got one of our board members here, Mike 
Nobriga.  We also have one of our senators here from 
the state, Avery Chumbley.  We've got Miles Inokuma 
from the mayor's office.  We've got my deputy here, 
George Tengan.  We have also some people here from 
HC&S, John Hoxie.  I don't know if you want to 
introduce your other people there with you.  But there 
is also a few other people that work for EMI there. 

Now, there is no particular order that I want 
to go, but -- oh, and we also have Eric Hirano from 
the water commission here. 

This map that I've got up here was a 
collaborative effort between the state water 
commission, USGS, and the Board of Water Supply from 
about 1994 to about '98 and then they wrote the report 
I think last year.  It's the Groundwater Occurrence 
and Contribution to Stream Flow, Northeast Maui, 
Hawaii, and it pretty much covers the area from Nahiku 
to Maliko Gulch areas, slightly off the map there. 

We will be holding another meeting probably in 
the Haiku area.  So if you're from that area, we'll be 
having another meeting out there.  But these streams 
-- all these -- this map here comes out of the back of 
this book.  I know you can't see it from there, but 
this is Keanae right here, so if you know where the 
streams are located, they pretty much got all the 
streams marked on here.  These yellow lines here -- 
this is our Upper Kula water system.  This is our 
Lower Kula water system.  This is HC&S's I believe 

Hamakua ditch or Wailoa Ditch.

A VOICE:  Wailoa.

MR. CRADDICK:  Coming in here and I guess 
Hamakua starts in here somewhere.  Spreckles, Lowrie, 
Haiku ditch going in. 

So anyways, this is mainly an informational 
meeting, as I said, to get information from the public 
on what they want to see as far as streams restored 
and some kind of prioritization of it.  So if anybody 
would like to speak, the floor is now open.  If you 
could come up here, probably spell your name.  We're 
doing a transcript of the meeting so that the board 
will be able to have a full word-for-word information 
of what everybody wants to say.  So do we have anybody 
who wants to start first here?

GLADYS KANOA:  Gladys Kanoa.  I live in 
Keanae.  And I'm a taro former.  And I am speaking 
here for my extended family who are all taro farmers, 
primarily in Keanae.  And I've been here for 23 years.  
And I know I'm the haole, but the Hawaiian folks in 
our family will rarely come to a meeting and rarely 
speak out if they do come, so they let me, thankfully, 
say something at these meetings.  They asked me to say 
that Waiokamilo stream is their priority for restoring 
the water from as far up as red flower down to the 
ocean. 

When you live along the stream, we have been 
asking for more water from EMI's ditch system for 
years and years, as you have read in the newspaper 
from all along.  And we've heard so many times, well, 
when it's dry, the water goes under, you know, the 
river doesn't flow.  But when you live beside the 
river, you know that that's too simplistic of an 
attitude because the entire river is diverted at one 
point to go to luakini where the taro was growing up 
there.  The excess water from there flows back over 
into Waiokamilo. 

About 50 feet behind our cottage where during 
big water the water would flow over the waterfall, 
when that portion of the river is dry the waterfall 
comes out halfway down the waterfall, comes from 
underground, and it still feeds the river that goes 
down where the water is again diverted to the taro 
patches into Wailua.

So it's a difficult thing to understand how 
these rivers work and I find that the study that was 
done, in reviewing it, I asked myself is this the same 
river we're talking about?  When they say it's a 
gaining river here and it's an intermittent stream 
here and it's this and that, to me the dotted lines 
were in certain instances backwards.  It was 
intermittent over here and it was dry over here.  It's 
really hard to understand these rivers. 

But my family said to give the priority to 
Waiokamilo stream and of course to Piinaau stream 
which feeds Lower Keanae's taro patches.  And the 
other stream that feeds Keanae, which is Palauhulu, is 
not as important to us because it doesn't feed the 
taro patches.  It does have all the native species in 
it, but there is a spring partway up that makes it a 
perennial stream about 99 percent of the time.  And my 
father-in-law said he would not ask for more water 
into that stream because during flood times, the 
overflow would be bigger into our backyard.  There is 
an overflow that goes right through our backyard and 
it has done so about three times in the 23 years I've 
lived here, so that stream is not a priority for him.  
Thank you. 

MR. CRADDICK:  Anybody else?   There has got 
to be more people than that. 

BOB ROGGASCH:  My Bob is Bob Roggasch.  And it 
seems like I've heard this before in Alaska.  At the 
time they were trying to take the land from Hawaii -- 
I mean from Alaska.  It's the same type of thing.  We 
got money for this.  Now we're no longer going to take 
it from you, we're going to give it to you, so now you 
have it so you have to live with what we got. 

I think this whole operation goes right along 
with the bill that -- Hackett's bill.  Not Hackett, 
but Akai -- I can't say it now.  But the bill that is 
before the Congress now that they're trying to make a 
nation within a nation.  This type of an organization, 
this type of money coming from out of the blue, this 
type of stuff is nothing more than a white wash for 
continuing to steal everything that the Hawaiians have 
left.  It's not bad enough they took everything, but 
now they are going to try to take it all.  So that's 
all I have to say. 

MR. CRADDICK:  Anybody else? 

RUSSELL KAHOOKELE:  Hello, everybody, board 
members.  My name is Russell Kaho'okele, I'm from 
lower Nahiku.  And if what I have to understand is 
going on here today, it sounds like -- it's like 
revive the streams but you like us pick which stream.  
Well, first of all, I would like to thank Akua for 
bringing us to this day and giving us this 
opportunity.  And I don't know why we even bothering 
telling you guys which stream is priority because they 
all important to us.  All the streams.  If I had my 
way, I would just close the gate at the ditch, Kihei 
or something, you know, outside there, and let all the 
rivers, go all the ditch goes dry. 

We had a meeting in Hana where everybody was 
against putting the land into conservation a hundred 
feet on both sides of the stream.  And I told the 
state representatives there, why conserve the land?  
If the stream go dry, what, the ohu going to build a 
hale on the side?  You've got to conserve the water 
that's in the stream.  They went ahead and did it 
anyway. 

Shortly after that, Maui Pine come out.  They 
like to activate their Kuhiwa well.  I was so against 
that, I was dead against that, went to every meeting 
trying to get them to stop.  But what happened?  They 
did it anyway.  So I tell the guy, what's it going to 
take to stop.  He said if there is a major impact on 
the stream, then they would be by law required to 
stop. 

Well, our stream is real dry now.  At the time 
we was talking, we were standing in the middle of the 
stream where the water is supposed to be over here but 
was barely at our ankles.  So I tell the guy what is 
this, is this not an impact on the stream?  What more 
does it take? 

And there is those of you who might think that 
the water flowing to the ocean is just a waste, but 
that's not true.  It's important for the water to 
reach the ocean.  In Nahiku, we have a lot of taro 
patches that have been overgrown.  Not because our 
ancestors never liked work the taro patch, but because 
we was too busy fighting wars for somebody else or 
going to work 7-Eleven for $5 a day, what have you.  
So all our taro patches are overgrown.  And us, the 
younger generation, we're trying to reopen up our taro 
patches in Nahiku and we need water.  We don't need 
more wells for more development.  We need water. 

I understand a lot of the wells out in Haiku 
side they been drilling, they been finding 
contamination from the fertilizers, the pesticides, 
whatever, Maui Pine and HC&S is using.  Pump that 
water back into the irrigation so they don't need 
spray no more pesticides or whatever.  Put that water 
back.  [Inaudible] Water for irrigate their field and 
they going to spray more poisons and pesticides.  As 
far as I'm concerned, the Puhipu well on top of 
Makapipi should be shot down.  Makapipi stream is an 
important stream to us.  Hanawi is even going lower.  
That's an important stream to us.  And every other 
stream from here to here I'm sure is important to 
everybody.  Thank you. 

MR. CRADDICK:  Anybody else? 

MAKAHINU COCKETT:  Aloha.  My name is Makahinu 
Cockett.  I now live in Hana, Maui, and I'm real 
thankful I can live out there and live amongst the 
people who still are here.  We never going no place. 
We are people of this land.  We know -- you ask us 
many times what's good for us and we told you many a 
times.  So the thing fall on deaf ears, then sometime 
you no can help.  I come, I come for share my as a 
high school graduate.  Okay.  I never go to college, 
you know, I fail to go to college, but that's okay.  
Real life experience has taught me to come this far 
and I'm going to speak on behalf of my ohana.  We got 
a very large family and it's very diversified. 

And understand that as you use resources that 
you may claim to be yours, such is the water.  You can 
have the land.  I'm a beneficiary of native Hawaiian 
homelands.  It's good if it's usable.  If you take 
Kahikinui, for instance, if we talk about water.  
Typically share some to our ohana outside there.  Even 
if we use 3/4 inch pipeline. 

And what I was really going to get to the 
point is if this water usage is being used, but excuse 
me if we got ohana that maybe work for the companies 
and they make their living off of the job.  When I 
heard the last time that this revokable permit that 
is, you know, granted for the use of our water, that 
comes from our water storage in the East Maui, is that 
not resources that come from Hawaiian seded lands.  
And if so, you know, in order to see in my hand this 
pawpaw, what is the annual use?  What do you folks pay 
for the use of this water annually?  What are the 
criterias for using this land?  Because if it's a 
revokable use permit, it means it's just taken away.  
And if it's a monthly thing, every month somebody got 
to go and sign up.  I would like to sign up. 

ERNEST JOHN SHOE:  Good evening, everyone.  My 
name is Ernest John Shoe.  I'm representing Eddie Lehu 
Lapena and also representing Mary and George Keala.  
They have owned lands in Huelo from before the Great 
Mahele.  Their water has been cut off.  Recently EMI 
has come in and on a Hanehoi stream, pau, no more 8" 
pipe.  Blocked off.  Everything has got to reach this 
height as it falls into the underground ditch before 
-- when it reaches this height, that's when we get our 
water.  On the Kualua stream, I get 8" water rights.  
8" water rights doesn't mean 2 4-inch pipes.  You do 
the mathematics, 2 4-inch pipe reduces it almost 47 
point something percent. 

Then I get the underground ditch.  This is the 
Lowrie ditch.  Then I get the underground ditch that 
goes all the way, all the way over to Twin Falls and 
beyond.  I get two more 4-inch pipes, all right.  Now 
I'm reduced down to what, almost 27 percent water.  
Unless big water, we get big rain, then everything 
goes down river. 

Recently, in 1997, EMI came and cleaned the 
road to the Lowrie ditch.  They shoved all the trees 
in the river.  The trees rot out, they come down the 
river, they build blocks along the river.  I got 
pictures.  All of a sudden you get a big rain.  
January 17th, 1999, here comes the water.  All of a 
sudden a blockage down from my place.  Let's go.  The 
suction from that, I use lose three taro walls.  Gone.  
History. 

The pohaku is not numbered.  I can't put them 
all back in the same place.  They're all downriver.  
I've got to rebuild.  Now it's not of a historical 
value anymore. 

What we would like, and if you would please 
reconsider and help us, what can we do to help you?  
Please restore the water.  Not only for the Hawaiian's 
sake, but all future generations that come in.  
They're already -- Eddie Lehua, they own three acres, 
3.30 acres of taro patch.  They're talking about 
selling.  Because no more water.  No more water, no 
more life.  That's what they tell me.  They would be 
here, but due to health reasons they cannot be here.  
And George and Mary Keala cannot be here because they 
live in Oahu, George is 87 and his daughter teaches 
Hawaiian language and they -- everything in short 
notice. 

There is a lot of things that I see just in 
Huelo district, Pualua, Hamakuloa ahupua'a.  The 
Keamuis on the -- what is the name of the river that 
-- what is it?  Your river system.  We have what we 
they call Pualimas, the king's gardens.  All right.  
Recently I heard that EMI needed proof, written proof, 
that these [inaudible] These rock walls weren't built 
50 years ago, they were built before.  They were here 
when King Kamehameha I came through.  How many battles 
were fought in the Hamakuloa district over that area?  
We get the King's trail.  You can come in and see the 
awai, the channels they dug, Hawaiians dug by hand to 
create this water system to feed the people.  Now it's 
being taken away.  Now you like think in writing.  No 
more TV, yeah.  Writing.  Is not sight proof enough?  

So I stand here asking you for the Hawaiians' 
sake who I represent:  How can we help you?  How can 
you help us?  How can we work all this stuff out?  
Thank you very much. 

MR. CRADDICK:  Anybody else?

MOKI KAHIAMOE, JR.:  Aloha, everybody, my name 
is Moki Kahiamoe, Jr.  I'm from Huelo.  And I want to 
say something, won't be long.  Back in 1978, I joined 
the military right after graduation.  I had two kids 
while I was in the service.  I've been all over.  I 
just came back more than two and a half years ago.  I 
decided I'm going to raise my kids and bring them back 
to the land where I was raised in Huelo with my 
grandparents. 

Now my dad is getting older, my grandfather, 
he's really half and half now, but back in those days 
I remember we go from the house all the way down to 
the taro patch, the water is always there.  But it 
started about eight -- about eight years ago, our 
water, we missed it, the stream.  But above that is 
where Hanehoi.  Somehow that two guys stay in 
relation.  Eight years ago the water just started to 
come down.  Because recently you no see no apoi, no 
fish.  You go down Waipio, this other [inaudible] go 
fishing.  A lot of the fish that used to be there, not 
there.  Because all the opae and everything feeds 
there. 

So I come home and plant taro.  I just 
starting to put in one thousand patch from the old nui 
where we used to have before.  I got to go with the 
sprinkler, modern day system and half-inch pipe.  The 
only water we get is for our au and whatever for the 
taro.  We no water grass, we no water plants, we no 
more waterfall.  It stays the same for years and it's 
still now.  Nothing different.  But the water has gone 
away.  Somehow the bucket is dry. 

And if you like look at water streams, don't 
look at the map.  I take you my house, come look at 
that and we walk there, brah.  I don't know what for 
tell you, but the thing is not how it used to be and 
we need to bring that water back because I cannot 
teach the kids and we cannot go back and say well, 
[inaudible] used to do with water, but now we no more 
water.  That's all I want to say.  Aloha. 

MR. CRADDICK:  Anybody else?

MOSES BURGAU:  Aloha.  Moses Burgau, Jr.  See, 
we're here for the water.  And water is life.  Now, 
you talk about water and you talk about progress and 
all of these wells that you're planning on drilling, 
all that water that they're planning to pump out, it's 
all the bottom water, because the top water has 
already been taken out for development, for the sugar 
cane which is being -- they're getting paid, 
subsidized.  It's not making money, but they're still 
taking the water. 

Now, we talking about all these streams here 
going dry.  We know it's going dry.  We know, all the 
people here.  Apparently the people that all the 
state, the government, they want proof.  That is the 
proof.  You come out here and you look at it and you 
see all these people involved in it.  Not just in an 
office or pushing papers or anything.  They're in the 
water, but there is no water.  Okay. 

Now, what -- what are we going to do?  What 
can we do as people to make the state and the 
government realize that there is no more water?  See?  
And now there is industries coming up, which is very 
important in Hawaii, industry.  It needs water.  And 
the best place to get is out here.  Where all these 
streams.  And it needs a whole bunch of water.  And 
everyone in here guarantee is going to go to that 
industry which requires water.  But there is no water.  
And if there is no water, we die.  That's all.  Thank 
you. 

DARYL KUPEHAMOI:  How's it.  My name is Daryl 
Kupehamoi from Huelo.  My grandfather is John 
Kupehamoi, but I'm representing this whole group here 
and many more who's not here, specifically the 
Hawaiian people and every culture [inaudible]. I'm a 
[inaudible].  When I was raised up as a young boy, 
water was very important to me and also my family and 
I believe every individual that's here.  And one thing 
about water, when I think of water, I always think of 
my grandmother.  Because that water, that idea also 
reminds me of God.  This is my heavenly father up 
above, you know.  And I pray to God, I prayed about 
this -- this is what August on the 21st.  On August 
21st we had a big prayer meeting, it was an all night 
prayer at the War Memorial.  And I specifically went 
up there to pray for this, knowing that that meeting 
was coming up.  I was praying for the water, we prayed 
for the County of Maui, Maui Irrigation, all these 
Hawaiian people that is in our island, the people 
that's on the island, not even Hawaiians, doesn't 
matter.  But we have prayed for this whole island that 
there is going to be some dramatic dramatic changes 
that's going to happen.  Until today, I believe it's 
going to happen. 

And I was a very troubled child, I'm not -- I 
no talk first.  I was action before I talked.  You 
know.  But now the Hawaiian give me a little more 
akamai so I got respect for everybody that's here in 
the room.  And I see this piece of paper over here 
which really don't mean nothing to me because I walk 
pretty much this whole thing over here.  And I'm only 
40 years old.  But yeah, I can honestly say, yeah, I 
pretty much walk this whole valley, this whole 
terrain.  That's a lot of terrain here.  And I know 
how the water is. 

I don't know all you other gentlemen that's 
here.  I appreciate you guys letting us come and talk.  
But you know, I really believe this water is, you 
know, it's very, very important.  I look at buildings 
and everything else that is important.  But you know 
what?  To the Hawaiians, when they was cultivating 
their land, it was not just the land that was 
cultivating, from mauka to makai, everything was all 
planned, down to fish, I mean, poi, to everything.  
Everything.  To the, you know, we eat like snail, we 
like eat opae, we like eat o'ohu, whatever we wanted 
was there.  Food.  We had so much plenty that  
everything was, you know, [inaudible] What you need?  
I give you some banana.  We get something in return.  
A trade value.  And that's how I was raised up.  
Everything was trade value. No money.  No money.  
Brah, I give you what you get.  All is changing.  But 
that all came from the heart and that was a beautiful 
thing that my grandparents taught me and everything.  
So the water, go everything got the water.  I don't 
believe the state own the water.  God, you know, this 
is the real thing when I look at constitutional or 
anything like that, or government, okay, this is how I 
look at it.  God created man.  Okay.  Man created the 
constitution.  Okay.  The constitution created the 
government.  The government created corporation.  And 
et cetera.  But much as possible, I believe that every 
one of these streams should be restored back to its 
natural resource.  And that's all I have to say.  
Thank you very much. 

JOHN BLUMER-BUELL:  Aloha, everybody.  I'm 
John Blumer-Buell, I live on the Kipahulu side of Hana 
in the ahupua'a Muoleia.  And there are -- I'm here 
tonight for the Hana Community Association board of 
directors to gather information.  And I just want to 
let everybody know that the Hana Community Association 
will do everything we can to help solve this 
situation. 

And I would like to let you know that there 
are two other people from our board here tonight that 
have already spoken on their own, Maka Cockett and 
Moki Burgau.  And I would also like to give a lot of 
-- a man I have a lot of respect for is Russell 
Kaho'okele.  Russell worked with Harley Kanakaole and 
I on the Kuhiwa well issue.  And the Hana Community 
Association is in the process of revisiting the whole 
Kuhiwa well issue through the State Commission on 
Water Resource Management.  So we will get out to the 
community the facts of what's happening with the 
pumping and so forth and we will revisit that. 

I wanted to give a lot of credit and aloha to 
all the folks from Namoku.  The opportunity is still 
here to rewater these streams because of the native 
people here that have hung in there.  And Hanawi 
stream would be dry already if the Native Hawaiian 
community hadn't stood up 20 years ago and said you 
don't get to take 10 million gallons a day out of the 
pool below Big Springs. 

So don't feel like it's all lost.  It's on the 
verge of coming back.  And I would like to again give 
some credit to Namoku.  And they had a meeting out 
here a couple months ago, I believe it was, and we had 
some folks from the Native Hawaiian Legal Defense 
Corporation and we had Mr. Johns from the State Board 
of Land and Natural Resources.  He wasn't required to 
come out here.  He came out here on his own.  And I'll 
tell you, I was very impressed with Mr. Johns because 
he described the situation from his perspective and I 
don't want to put words in his mouth, but he described 
the situation of water in the state as being nuclear 
and really a lot of trouble.  And he indicated that 
the state needs to do something to -- for some 
justice.  I mean, we need to have some justice for the 
native Hawaiians just for a starter.  So I think he 
was well aware of that, he indicated that, indicated 
the willingness to come back, work with the community. 

I'm really happy to see Senator Chumbley here, 
representatives from the mayor's office, people from 
EMI.  Boy, we're all in this together.  And it's 
really time to, you know, for people to really step 
back from the -- and really take a look at the hearts 
of the native people, I think, and really understand 
how important this issue is.  So I'm very cautiously 
optimistic that we will be able to move something 
ahead here. 

Now, I'm not -- I will, after my experience in 
working through the contested case hearing on Kuhiwa 
well with -- Arnold Lum was our attorney for that one, 
the Sierra Club Legal Defense Corp., and Harley 
Kanakaole, we worked with Mr. Bill Meyers of the USGS 
who was our expert -- one of our expert witnesses.  
And it seems very obvious to me that the place to 
start, and I speak only for, you know, just in part, I 
don't claim to be speaking for everybody, but it seems 
very logical to start by rewatering the Kuhiwa well 
through Makapipi, through Kuhiwa -- I mean through 
Hanawi, that those are the first streams on the ditch.  
And it makes a lot of sense, I've walked all that, 
seen all the plumbing and everything, it makes a lot 
of sense to think about rewatering those streams first 
in that area.  I will defer completely to Namoku and 
the [inaudible] farmers in the Keanae Wailua Nui, they 
know what streams that they need here.  And I'm only 
talking about the first step.  So I feel very strongly 
that that's a logical first move.  Makapipi through 
the Kuhiwa watershed and over to Hanawi. 

So I'm not sure -- I want to ask David what 
the time line for this is because we're going to, you 
know, we want to get some things in writing to you.  
If people want to get things in writing, what's the 
date?

MR. CRADDICK:  As far as the time line, what 
we're trying to do is to get additional water into the 
system, we're trying to do that by the end of this 
year.  How much time it would take after that, I would 
expect no more than another half a year after that to 
see something finished.  But I don't want to restrict 
the board to some time line.  That's just my feeling, 
not necessarily what the board's timetable is.  That 
could move faster or slower than that.

JOHN BLUMER-BUELL:  The last thing I forgot to 
say about when Mr. Johns was out here and the Native 
Hawaiian Legal Defense Corporation.  We had some 
hypothetical questions that were put to them.  And one 
of the ones that came up was if there are lo'i down by 
the ocean, are there Native Hawaiian rights for those 
lo'i or not?  And how do we get the water there? 

The opinion of -- there is apparently case law 
on that already and if the lo'i can be proven to be 
pre Great Mahele, there is already case law that the 
water has to be -- has to go to those lo'i.  So I've 
volunteered for the HCA and we're getting the maps and 
Mr. Johns thought it would really be helpful to 
quantify where the lo'i are, to start mapping the 
lo'i, and to let them know how much water do we need.  
So these are constructive things that we can do.  I 
would suggest that a lot of you know me, you could 
talk with me, or let's say Ed Wendt or Ava Puhi from 
Nomoku, others that are helping to document, quantify, 
and qualify what's going on here so that when we get 
together with the officials, we can say look, these 
are the -- here's a hundred acres of lo'i by the 
ocean, the law says that the water has to be there, 
how are we going to get it there.  So you know, let's 
start working together and, you know, I have a lot of 
respect for the people that are here and really care.  
Aloha. 

LISA MESSENGER KAHIAMOE:  Hi, my name is Lisa 
Messenger Kahiamoe.  And I'm not a kanaka maoli and 
I'm not a Native Hawaiian.  I'm a witness.  I'm a 
witness.  I've been on Maui since I was two years old.  
Between the time I was two years old and the time now, 
devastating changes to the culture, to the people of 
Hawaii have gone too far already. 

One good thing I've seen in this time is in 
the last few years, some truth has come to light.  And 
you want to talk about law?  Let's talk about law.  
Let's talk about how Queen Liliokalani never signed 
away her people or their lands.  How it was all 
illegal, okay, according to the United Nations 
resolution, declaration of peace between all nations, 
it's all proven illegal.  Let's talk about law.  Okay. 

Who called this meeting?  How dare you folks 
call this meeting to ask the Hawaiian people -- and 
don't call them Native Hawaiians because they're not.  
They're kanaka maolis.  And anyone in here that is a 
Hawaiian or kanaka maoli, I urge you do not let the 
United States define who you are, who your people are, 
who your lo'is are.  No, I'm sorry, the kanaka maoli 
will tell you who they are.  They have the right to 
self-determination just like every creature in the 
world.  That's also Article 42, Declaration of Human 
Rights, okay.  Everybody has that right to say who 
they are.  You cannot say, oh, they're Native 
Hawaiians and put them like what America did to the 
Indians, ripped them off for years and years.  Oh, 
it's a wolf in sheep's clothing.  If you're going to 
take money from the United States, that money should 
be all no strings attached restitution for what they 
stole from you. 

The question is not which streams you want 
back.  What I would like to see it for the people, 
okay, stop taking their water right now.  Stop 
stealing their water.  And come to them and say how 
much water you folks will sell us.  How much water you 
folks will lease us.  Okay?  And you take that -- you 
let the kupuna decide because that's the lawful 
government in Hawaii.  At the time of the overthrow, 
that was the lawful government, kupuna handling local 
affairs,monarchy  handling the international treaties, 
which there was treaties with other countries. 

America came in illegally, the United States.
It was a conspiracy.  It's all proven.  Okay?  San 
Francisco Tribunal, you look at the San Francisco Law 
Review, since 1984 it's one [inaudible] genocide is 
being committed against the people of Hawaii.  
Genocide.  By the United States committing genocide.  
Don't let them genocide you.  Don't let them tell you 
who you are or what your lo'i -- which one is your 
lo'i that you can have.  No, we want every lo'i, we 
want more lo'is.  We want lo'i for every family that 
lives in Hawaii.  That's something that all the people 
can agree to.  Okay. 

The reason why getting divisions and 
everything is because you folks is being misinformed.  
I was a teacher for the state.  I resigned.  They 
teach lies in the school.  I refuse to teach half 
truths, okay.  It's lies and half truths going on. 
That's why people don't know, they don't know their 
rights, they don't know their civil liberties, okay.  
What we need is education, okay.  How you want to help 
us?  Okay, start putting out the truth then.  
Apologize to the Hawaiian people for stealing their 
water.  Stop stealing their water.  Okay?  And you 
know what, you don't have to and you might never see 
me again, but you will see me.  You're going to see me 
on judgment day when we all stand before the Lord God 
Almighty.  We all going to be there, folks.  Make sure 
you're not an oppressor, okay.  Make sure you're not 
an oppressor.  Make it right with God.  You don't know 
what's going to happen to you any day.  Okay.  But one 
thing for sure, you will be there before the judgment, 
okay.  And God is going to give the people back their 
water and I praise him for that.  Because the people, 
they cry out to him and God will hear them.  And don't 
be standing in God's way now because you going to get 
run over.. 

Now, the Lord is merciful, all you do is you 
apologize to the people, give them back their water, 
give them restitution, they don't have to sign 
nothing, you hand it to the kupuna, it's yours.  You 
folks decide what you going to do with it.  We don't 
have no business knowing.  We just want to know how 
much water you're willing to lease to us every day.  
And let the Hawaiians decide what they going to give 
you.  Because it's theirs, it's not yours.  And you 
folks stole it a long time ago and you're keeping it 
going by misinforming. 

But I want to go teach all the keikis the 
truth, okay.  You guys can't stop me for that.  And I 
hope everybody does.  Okay. 

MR. CRADDICK:  Anybody else?

SOLOMON KAAUAMO:  Aloha, I'm Solomon Kaauamo, 
born and raised in this ahua.  And brought up, worked 
the lo'is with my dad and we're still working and my 
kids and my grand kids are working, too. 

A little bit of history about this place.  But 
before I go into that, I just like to say that the 
issue here is not against EMI.  I see EMI people back 
there.  The issue here is about water returning to us.  
And this is not a fight between me and EMI or anything 
personal. 

But our history back there.  I went away, I 
worked when I was a young kid, worked with my dad in 
the lo'is.  I went away to high school, I went to 
Lahainaluna, graduated from Lahainaluna, went away.  I 
didn't want to come back.  I didn't want to work the 
lo'i.  When my dad retired, he asked me, he said to 
come home.  And I said no, I not coming home.  We have 
12 kids in our family.  Give it to one of them.  And 
they said well, I'll ask every one of them and if not 
one of them want to come home, you're going to have to 
come home. 

So I was living in Honolulu at that time.  I 
loved that life.  I loved Honolulu.  I love that 
lifestyle down there.  I had a good time down there.  
I had a good job.  I wanted to live on Oahu.  I didn't 
want to come back.  However, not one of my brothers or 
sisters wanted to come back and live this life.  So I 
brought my wife home.  My wife is, by the way, from 
Honolulu, come from [inaudible], taro patch land, too, 
down there.  We were brought up the same way, too. 
Brought her back home here.  She said, "This is our 
life.  We're coming home."  I said oh, no, no, I'm not 
coming home.  No, this is too hard of a life.  So I 
told my dad, I told my dad, "Dad, if I'm coming home, 
the taro patch is not going to be my life.  That's 
going to be a supplemental to me."  I needed to get a 
real job.  He said okay, I'm retired from the county, 
you're coming home, you're working for the county.  We 
went to Elmer Cravalho.  Cravalho got me the job.  
True facts.  Okay.  I worked for the county now 30 
years, ready to retire, but I'm still hanging in 
there. 

In the early 1970s, the state -- the state 
department -- I don't know if it was DLNR or somebody, 
was going to provide this irrigation system to half of 
Wailua Nui.  But because Elmer Cravalho at that time, 
he wanted to do all the job for everybody so he don't 
have to pay out of his pocket.  He took all the jobs 
from the state.  Elmer Cravalho even built the cabins 
at Wainapanapa.  Working for the county.  He took all 
those jobs.  The same thing with our irrigation 
system.  We took on that job.  We put in 12 
[inaudible] Had plenty water.  The water was filling 
half of our Wailua Nui lo'is.  All of a sudden 
[inaudible]  Pipe not even fill.  Not enough water to 
go up in the pipe.  In the '70s that pipe was full.  
Only in the '70s.  Today, zero.  The only time they 
get water is nowadays because had plenty rain.  But 
obviously something must have happened up there.  The 
ditch, however, must have come up some.  How?  Man 
made, brah.  Go out there, you see the cement below 
the ditch.

You go up to Wailua Valley lookout, look out 
in the valley.  Almost half of the valley overgrown 
with grass.  Why?  No more water.  Talk about apua 
concept.  This was it.  Wailua Nui was the [inaudible]  
No place else.  And I raised up in this land where I 
see all the -- every lo'i in Wailua Nui open.  Every 
land had taro growing.  We never had no diseases  
because we had plenty water.  Water wash away 
everything.  We never had snails like we have today.  
We don't have blights, we never had all these other 
diseases.  We had enough water.  Our [inaudible] never 
go [inaudible].  That's all good taro.  We had the 
best taro in the state of Hawaii.  And even until 
today when all the factory say we don't want your taro 
because your taro is junk.  And we say go to hell, 
we're going to fill you the taro.  We turned around 
and we did it wholesale.  We started making our own 
poi.  We made our own poi, came back to life.  The poi 
shop wanted back the taro.  We said no, not getting it 
back.  We do it ourselves.  Today we can even supply 
it again.  And make it in [inaudible] because there is 
no water.  There is no water.  Lo'is are all closing 
up.  Running into all kind of problems.  And the issue 
is the lo'is [inaudible] only Keanae.  If you start to 
prioritize and you say okay, Waikane stream, we will 
let this stream flow.  What about hui on the bottom?  
He need water.  What about the brothers in Nahiku?  He 
need water.  Everybody need water. 

Prioritizing is making us fight among our own 
people.  Don't prioritize.  Every stream got to get 
water.  Every stream got to get the water.  By 
prioritizing, you're making us fight each other, our 
brothers.  That's not right.  That's not right. 

Keanae, same thing.  People using the stream, 
using the pond for swim.  By the time the water reach 
down to the lo'i, the same water going down to the 
lo'i, the water get warm, it's not cold like how it 
used to be.  But our problem is there and the issue is 
shouldn't be prioritizing [inaudible].  Everybody, no 
make us fight.  No make the brothers fight.  Thank 
you.

ED WENDT:  Aloha.  I'm Ed Wendt, president of 
Namoku.  I live in Wailua Nui.  I want to thank all 
the people who testify because you're darn accurate.  
For the state officials, county officials, East Maui 
Irrigation, I like what solves it.  We're not here to 
[inaudible].  You have affected our [inaudible].  You 
have affected our economic development.  You have 
affected our environment.  For the state, you're 
supposed to have been helping the Hawaiians.  Hawaiian 
Homelands supposed to give priority for water.  Check 
you guys' track record.  Not accurate. 

When you affect our economics, a way of life 
-- and I've heard this young lady say human rights -- 
you're affecting my human rights.  When you dewater 
everything and there is no life in our rivers, it will 
affect our lives.  Our question I guess is to you that 
we are thankful that you are here, that we can iron 
out something.  But I too speak that all the streams 
should have water, at least instream flow which the 
water commission, whoever you are, supposed to go and 
check and regulate to see how much water.  You might 
have sent people, but I notice you folks send people 
when it's rainy. 

For EMI, I'm not here to pick, we're not here 
to fight, we're not here to fight the county or 
anybody else.  Same Mr. Craddick, he's an important 
job.  All of you have an important job because people 
must have water, too.  We are so fortunate 
[inaudible], we have about approximately 206 people 
live in our village.  Yet we got two wells.  They're 
still digging one other one.  For this small little 
community, we have two wells.  We fortunate.  Whatever 
the reason is.  But the issue is all about water.  And 
the issue is my human rights is being affected. 

And also I speak for the environment.  I, too, 
have seen this place flourish with [inaudible] and the 
environment healthy.  Now our environment not healthy, 
we not healthy.  And we are sick.  A hundred and seven 
years of corruption at its best in this great state 
called Hawaii Nei.  We like to see changes.  And do 
not pit us against each other, kanaka maoli against 
kanaka maoli, or white against white, or Japanese 
against Japanese.  Because the water is for everyone. 

Economic development.  What gives EMI the 
right -- or Alexander & Baldwin the right?  So to be 
able to have the water commission, Mr. Cravalho, 
designate them [inaudible] to do what you guys want to 
do, 25, 30 years, just take the water.  Somebody 
stated, What about us?  Why cannot we kanaka maoli be 
in on this, our own resource?  

I have talked to lawyers in the United 
Nations.  They're laughing at you folks.  Because one 
day the hammer going to come down.  And I don't 
believe any one of us can stop it.  For those of you 
who are not aware that the United Nations is looking 
at you.  We have representatives here from Native 
Hawaiian Legal Corporation who wrote the handbook 
Native Hawaiian Rights.  That's our rights.  But none 
of you are paying attention to these rights.  If I was 
you folks, go get the book, if it's possible, and read 
it.  That is where we're coming from. 

We are aware that the state and the federal 
government have made laws in their own chambers to 
protect themselves.  There is only one out there the 
United Nations. 

You know, it's not fun and games any more and 
after a while people get tired, tired of bullshit, a 
hundred and seven years, we've seen a lot of bullshit 
and a lot of dewatering of these streams. 

Now we also aware that you got to service the 
people on the other side.  So how we gonna do this?  
What stream?  If we only say Wailua Nui and Keanae and 
do not fulfill Nahiku or Huelo, then you're affecting 
their human rights.  We all have rights.  Like the 
fall out of Cayetano and Rice, that alone is going to 
affect every ethnic group.  So are there law that are 
going to protect us?  Not only the Native Hawaiians;  
all people who live here.  Because scenic rights or 
scenic vista is what for everybody to go swim, the 
beauty.  For those of you officials who don't hang out 
here, why don't you guys come out here for a few days, 
come hang out with us, come listen to the tourists. 

They laughing at you folks.  The leadership in 
the county and the state is zero.  And yet we got to 
listen to you folks.  It's our aina.  This is our 
resources.  It is our rights you're playing with. 

Somehow I read the literature, they don't say 
nothing about our rights, the Native Hawaiian.  
Talking about taking water on the other side.  But now 
we have an opportunity to fulfill. 

All I can say, I hope this equal to all our 
people in East Maui.  We must think about us.  We have 
the rights to create economic development, too.  Do 
not deny us.   So I say it again:  Go get your book, 
read it, because it is just not between the county and 
state.  It is much more.  There are people in the 
national environmentalists are looking at you guys.  
We have no control over what's going to go down.  All 
I know is on its way.  So prepare yourselves and do 
not pit us against each other even though you come 
from EMI or you represent the state or the county or 
any official.  Even among ourselves, do not pit.  But 
I'm very glad you are here, all of you, and this is, I 
would say, a historical moment. 

A few years ago we had a water hearing out 
here or a conference.  We were told at that time, I 
don't know if it was two years ago, that EMI took 100 
streams and rivers two years ago.  Today, 116.  Where 
that 16 came from?   We never know nothing about it.  
But yet you folks go do this.  So it has to be between 
the county and the state and EMI to make these kind of 
decision without the input of the people.  So cynical, 
yes, we are cynical towards you.  I personally am.  
You folks make me shake with mad because I feel like 
you think we are ignorant.  We're not ignorant.  We 
humble people.  We took a lot of shit for a hundred 
and seven years.  And yet you guys are trying to stuff 
it down our throats. 

All in all I say God bless all of you and I 
hope a very prosperous meeting turn out.  And I do not 
want to say [inaudible] this stream.  I want us to 
[inaudible] East Maui.  We come to conclusion, we make 
decision, we vote.  Because what's good for us is good 
for our kanaka maoli down the road.  Thank you. 

MR. CRADDICK:  How many more people want to 
talk?    

TAUAPA UPUA:  Aloha.  My name is Tauapa Upua.  
I'm born and raised here in Keanae.   I'm a taro 
farmer but a wetland taro farmer.  I farm taro in 
Keanae and Wailua.  The streams that I get my water 
from is from Puaaluu and also Waiokamilo.  In these 
areas [inaudible], we have water coming down.  But 
there is water for the people, for the taro, and for 
your opae, your [inaudible]  Waiokamilo, for example, 
we have water coming to our lo'is this way.  But not 
enough water for me go swim in the pond that I always 
go swim under the bridge.  No more.  That is my 
culture.  Without that, I am nobody.  Without water, 
you cannot be a farmer out here.  You have no water, 
you have no life. 

I plant taro last year down Keanae.  We have 
no water patches.  Ten one time.  All look nice.  No 
more water.  They tell me drought [inaudible].  Coming 
down, they give water for swim, but not enough to 
everybody.  All my life always get water.  I see taro 
grow 8 feet high.  Nowadays you fight for [inaudible].  
What is that?  We have the land.  Sometimes we get the 
water.  Some days I eat poi, some days no eat poi.  
That's where I am right now because of the water. 

People tell me oh, you got a thing, like for 
example you [inaudible], but I tell you you no clean 
your [inaudible] if you run consistently.  It cleans 
itself.  And if you bring life for everything all the 
way down.  Even bringing the [inaudible] for up 
[inaudible]to the ocean.  I see everybody is still 
going to get [inaudible].  I don't see no [inaudible] 
coming down.  No more fish.  [Inaudible], pau.  Before 
[inaudible], everything jumping. 

This is my lifestyle, this is all of our 
culture.  We might have different values, we might 
have different lifestyles, but we got similarities and 
everything like that.  This is what my mother, my 
father, our kupuna teach me.  I not too sure if I can 
teach the next generation now.  So what is that?  
Kanaka die.  Not just [inaudible].  All kanaka.  
Kanaka is mankind.  Okay.  Everything, you need water, 
you need land, you need [inaudible].  Okay. 

Taro farmer, I tell you this, get people grow 
taro dry land, you talking that is quantity.  We worry 
about our quality lifestyle.  We make poi from wet 
land.  People make poi from dry land, but they always 
tell them need the wet land.  Same like you 
[inaudible] Nowadays you don't see that.  You see 
everything just [inaudible] all wild [inaudible] side 
and everything like that. 

I worked my lifestyle as a taro farmer.  But 
to survive in today's world, I work tourist industry.  
I drive vans, I drive in, and come back out.  I see 
all these rivers and here I get it across to the 
tourists, telling them that this is a rain forest with 
no waterfall.  Okay.  Our number one industry which is 
ecotourism today, everything else that comes after 
like that.  But yet this is our cultures. 

This one that supposed to be flourishing in 
our island, for our people.  Maui today, number one 
vacation island in the world.  What they come here 
for?  Not to stay in a hotel room, do activities 
around.  When they come through here and they are oh, 
pay all this money for nothing.  I thought Maui No Ka 
Oi, you know what I mean?  And you got to tell 
[inaudible] you got to give them an excuse.  Oh, 
drought, or El Nino.  But yet I see more houses, more 
buildings, more infrastructure all over this island.  
Okay.  I no see too much building inside here.  And 
why we need one more well?  You know what I mean?  But 
got [inaudible], get people involved, people got to 
work for a living.  You look, for example, plenty  
people taro farmer, plenty people gatherers.  Here in 
Keanae, Wailua Nui, that's the only lifestyle I saw 
from [inaudible] time.  Growing up, kupunas, some of 
them that are still living today.  But even them, the 
places that they know of were plentiful and 
everything, [inaudible].  You go into a house, you 
find opae for eat.  [Inaudible] you know what I mean?  
Today you go no more.  You go [inaudible].  
[Inaudible] you go catch one.  One.  One.  One opae.  
Only one opae.  Before [inaudible] full.  Everybody 
all happy.  Now there is even [inaudible] people, 
people not happy.  Why, no more water, no more things 
that keep us happy.  For keep us alive and strong and 
also to last throughout the next generations.  We need 
water.  We need a solid man upstairs, God Almighty, to 
protect us, flourish our [inaudible], watch over our 
kanaka. 

Tell me who watching over all this water going 
out?  Sugar cane.  Houses.  And more houses and people 
-- money come here, buy here, everything like that.  
Okay.  The water going straight.  Kanaka here, for 
example, Huelo, no more water.  I get place Waipio, 
too.  Two river come inside Waipio.  It's our 
property.  Two river no more.  [Inaudible] below, the 
valley below, no more water.  [Inaudible]  That's one 
example.  Waiokamilo.  Palauulu.  Makapipi.  I tell 
you this, Makapipi before, plenty fish down there down 
Nahiku.  [Inaudible] But not abundant as before.  
Makapipi river as the beginning of the ditch and yet 
with plenty rain, Makapipi dry.  And then when the 
people squawk, oh, Makapipi get water.  And supposed 
to be drought.  You tell me.  I don't know to the 
other day that we have wells up here.  I thought this 
was [inaudible] miles of open beach and underground 
tunnels taking streams, springs.  Got to get the 
facts.  I never knew had wells.  Now I know. That's 
from Makapipi to [inaudible].  This is our boundary.  
What they like do, we get a place already.  We got to 
bring them back and not only there, wherever else get 
rivers.  All this side, Windward side.  Leeward side, 
dry.  [Inaudible] house everywhere.  Take the water go 
there.  Because why?  That's where we no stay.  We're 
not living.  We live here.  How can I go take care of 
somebody else when I [inaudible] backyard.  
[Inaudible] I need water.  But you not [inaudible].  
Mahalo. 

AWAPUHI CARMICHAEL:  My name is Awapuhi 
Carmichael and I'm a seventh generation from this 
ahupua'a.  My family goes way back as far as I can 
remember.  My parents and my grandparents were 
gatherers.  I'm a gatherer.  We gathered from the 
ocean all the way up to makai.  But in the past 20 
years, we've had to go into the forests because there 
is no water to gather opaes. 

A few years ago, there was an unwritten law 
that we couldn't sell the opaes.  But it isn't our 
fault that there is no opaes, no life in the streams.  
I believe that we should have an interim stream flow 
and every in every stream because it's our livelihood.  
It's our culture.  How can we pass it on to the future 
generations?  In a few years we're not going to have 
anything to pass to our grandchildren. 

Yesterday I had the most beautiful 
opportunity.  I took two of my grandchildren and a 
niece and we went to catch opihis.  There was no 
water.  The ocean was just excellent.  No fishes.  
When we were little, we used to go along the shoreline  
and that's all you could see was fishes all over.  We 
just used to lay around and dream about these fishes.  
Today we have nothing.  We don't have anything and we 
need to subsist.  We need our lifestyle back.  Without 
our lifestyle, in a few years we'll be just like 
anybody else and pretty soon you know we're going to 
have a big development in our ahupua'a.  We want to 
remain the way we were raised.  We want our children 
to have our lifestyle. 

So you know what I mean, water, they need 
water outside. But what about us?  What about the taro 
farms?  What about the gatherers?  You know, I'm 63 
years old, I'm going to be 64.  And we still gather.  
Now we got to go way up in the forest because there is 
no water. 

I remember when we were little, my parents 
lived along the [inaudible], they lived between two 
streams, and we used to go out and just catch the 
opaes or o'opus.  And we have nothing now, you know.  
As Ed says, you could count what you catch.  And I 
think everyone here, you know, we really need our 
water to remain in this district, the district of the 
Ko'olau which comes from Makaiwa all the way to 
Kea'aiki, all the way to Kipahulu.  We need an X 
amount of water. 

You know, a few weeks ago we went up in the 
mountains and I think it was Mile 38 and there were 
huge pipes, six inches.  They have put pipes into 
every place that they can capture the water.  And all 
of this water is going out to Wailuku and we're left 
with nothing to subsist on.  Thank you. 

ELAINE WENDER:  Aloha.  My name is Elaine 
Wender.  What we have here in East Maui is a unique 
situation:  The largest water diversion in the state 
where we have over a hundred streams, over 365 
diversions of those streams that take out from East 
Maui 267 million gallons a day or 60 billion gallons a 
year on an average.  Ninety percent of this goes to 
cane.  And even though A&B has completely converted 
36,000 acres to drip irrigation, which they claim 
saves them about 33 percent on water needs, still 
everything is taken. 

Right below the ditch, all the streams are 
completely dry.  We are fortunate here in Keanae that 
we have springs on some streams below the ditch and so 
from those springs some of our streams have water some 
of the time. 

If a company came along today and tried to do 
what has been done, there is no ward in this county or 
the state that would allow it.  It's only because this 
has existed for so long that it's allowed to continue.  
What it has amounted to really is an ecological and a 
cultural disaster.  And we've been struggling for many 
years in Keanae to try to reverse this.  And I hope 
that this is a historic occasion.  I hope that this is 
the beginning of a turn around and the bringing back 
of the water into the streams. 

In preparing for today's meeting, I went 
through some files that take up more than an entire 
file drawer.  And one of the papers I came across was 
a communication to the Commission on Water Resource 
Management from the then existing Keanae Wailua Nui 
Community Association.  And this was from April 1988, 
over 12 years ago.  Signed by the then president of 
the association, Uncle Harry Mitchell, [inaudible] 
grandfather.  He's now been dead for almost 10 years.  
And in this paper, we asked -- the community asked 
that a continuous flow from the mountain to the sea be 
re-established in basically all the streams from 
Hanawi to [inaudible] that serve this Keanae area.  
And all their tributaries.  And I think from what 
you're hearing tonight, people are saying that that's 
what we want.  That's what the people here want for 
this area and that's what people from other areas 
want.  There has to be at least a minimum flow in all 
the streams. 

Being a realist, I realize that we're not 
going to get all the flow back in all the streams, 
although that's what we really want.  There are some 
streams certainly that should get all the flow back 
and I don't think we need to go into detail about 
which ones at this time, but I think what's really 
important for you to know and to hear is that people 
really want that minimum flow in every stream, the 
minimum flow that is needed to support life, 
everything from the opae to the taro farmer in every 
stream at all times. 

I'm the end user on Waiokamilo stream and I've 
been keeping statistics on that stream for 16 years.  
And in all but four of those years, there were times 
when there was no water in the stream at the end.  
Last year, 23 percent of the time there was no water 
in the stream at the end.  Waiokamilo is of course 
like every stream completely diverted at the ditch and 
then it is used for taro patches and there are also 
quite a few families who are completely dependent on 
that stream for their domestic water use.  There was 
one year during the drought in 1984 that that stream 
was dry 60 percent of the time.  

And when we talk about restoring water from 
the streams, we're also talking about all those other 
little diversions.  People refer to all those little 
pipes that are in there that are taking the water from 
all places that it can be gathered. 

And there is another thing that I think is 
very important.  It's not just a matter of putting the 
water back in the stream.  Because the streams have 
been abused for over a century, you can't -- the water 
would not come down.  It's true what EMI says, if they 
put the water in the stream it wouldn't come down.  
And that is because the streams are overgrown because 
the natural water flow hasn't been in those streams 
for so many years.  So the responsibility for doing 
that cleanup, which is a massive job, should fall on 
those who have been diverting that water for all these 
years.  And I hope that the county is not planning to 
come back to us and tell us it's our responsibility to 
redo the streams so that they can accommodate the 
water, because that is not our job.  But we do need to 
have water back in all of our streams.  Thank you.

MARK SHEEHAN:  Aloha.  My name is Mark 
Sheehan.  I'm deeply moved by hearing you talk and I 
just want to share my version of the movie of what's 
going on. 

It's true there is a drought.  And we talk 
about a shortage of water.  There is not a shortage of 
water.  There is a shortage of justice.  The people 
who are taking the water -- I'm sure the people from 
EMI who are here this evening are very moved by what 
you say.  So ultimately the chiefs in San Francisco 
and Honolulu are more interested in the bottom line of 
what it costs for them to produce the sugar.  And so 
if you dry up, if your streams dry up and you dry up, 
really, it's too bad.  And what's tragic is that we 
are letting them take the water.  Every year, 67 
billion gallons of water is taken out of the district.  
Your district.  And we let them somehow.  And I think 
if we are anything, we are much too polite.  And you 
need to be far more demanding to make sure that 
whoever is really able to hear you and make a decision 
about it really hears you and changes. 

You should ask for half of the water.  Half of 
the 67 billion gallons would be a good start.  And the 
cleanup of the streams.  You have to ask for it.  You 
have to demand it.  They will not give it to you. 

I'm in real estate.  I sell stolen lands, 
basically.  And I was over today at a meeting where 
people are paying 10 million dollars and 12 million 
dollars for an acre of land with a house on it over in 
Wailea.  There was no talk of a problem of water.  I 
didn't hear a thing.  I think if you go to the 
meetings about Makena, you will not hear any problem 
about shortage of water in terms of the two hotels 
they want to build and the 1,400 condominiums.  And 
Wailea 670.  They plan to build 1,400 homes.  I don't 
think you're going to be hearing them talk about the 
shortage of water.  You know why?  They are going to 
be getting your water.  They don't have to have these 
meetings.  They don't have to explain about their 
lifestyle and the problems with their lifestyle 
because they know they are going to get the water. 

You have to wonder with this Memorandum of 
Understanding that is being generated between the 
Board of Water Supply and A&B.  Now, right now you 
have a year to year lease between the state for your 
water and A&B one year, EMI the next year.  And yet we 
have a Memorandum of Understanding that's going to be 
developed between Alexander & Baldwin and the Board of 
Water Supply for 25 years.  Doesn't that make you 
curious as to how they can do that?  Because they are 
assuming that they will be able to go and get another 
long-term lease from the state.  And I think it's your 
responsibility to make sure that that does not happen.  
You have to make sure that you make a claim for that 
water. 

A lot of that water goes over state land and 
so the state has a right to that water. 

A VOICE:  Over whose land?

MARK SHEEHAN:  Over state land.  Over your 
land.  Over your land.  They say that 30 percent of 
the water comes from A&B land.  The rest comes from 
state land, your land.  But it goes into EMI and it 
goes into meet A&B's bottom line, and too bad for you.  
So you have to make a claim for that water.  You have 
to form an organization.  Maybe it would be the Native 
Hawaiian legal rights group that would make a claim 
for that water.  Maybe you have to designate that 
well.  Maybe you have to go to the Board of Land and 
Natural Resources and say we want all of Maui's water 
designated.  Otherwise what you have going on in my 
opinion is a shell game.  You have a scam going on.  A 
scam with the Board of Water Supply.  And a scam by 
A&B and EMI to steal the water.  And they are always 
-- if you excuse the expression, pointing out the 
stars while they are pissing in your pocket.  Don't 
let them do that.  You have to really demand that they 
keep the water in these streams.  You have to form an 
organization, it seems to me, that makes a claim for 
that water and say we will operate the water and we 
will sell you the water.  Otherwise you're going to 
have Kihei, Wailea, Makena paved with condominiums and 
plenty of water and you will have nothing. 

So you have to really get -- I once had an 
environmental lawyer come here and talk to some people 
from Maui who were environmental activists and when 
they left, she said, "You're very polite, way too 
polite.  You have to be much more assertive and much 
more aggressive." 

I may not be completely accurate in everything 
I say, but I've been here for almost 30 years and I've 
watched the game for a long time.  This is a very 
corrupt state.  It's very easy  for people with 
political power to make their deals with the state and 
make their deals with the county.  And you don't have 
enough political power to change it, so you need to 
figure out how to get that and be way more demanding 
to get that water to preserve your lifestyle.  Thank 
you. 

JAY PARKER:  I'm Jay Parker from Huelo.  And I 
don't have a lot of follow up with all the great 
testimony that we heard, but I'm by nature a 
suspicious person and I'm wondering why the stream 
restoration thing came up right now.  Is it that 
suddenly there has been a big change of heart to help 
us all out?  I don't believe it.  And the thing is, 
this Memorandum of Understanding with Alexander & 
Baldwin, I like Alexander & Baldwin, they're all 
friends of mine, but to me this goes too far because 
what this does is allows A&B to develop these giant 
mega commercial wells all along their ditch systems, 
dump the water into the ditches, and charge the 
taxpayers to clean it up over at the Kamole treatment 
plant and sell it back to the county. 

And there's some talk right now that there is 
a lot going on in the Kailua area and possibly five of 
these commercial wells under development now.  And so  
being a suspicious person like I am, I can't help it, 
I think probably -- I'm just going to take a guess 
that the stream restoration offer is a diversionary 
tactic to neutralize everybody. 

And I was really gratified to hear everybody 
here tonight, as much as you each need those streams, 
I've seen the dry taro beds, I know what's going on, 
but to stick together and say no, we're not going to 
designate individual streams.  That's the right 
approach.  That's what we have to do. 

And so, you know, we hear about this 
Memorandum of Understanding with A&B and then two 
weeks later we pick up the newspaper and we see, oh, 
Makena resort back on track, 2,000 units.  Oh, two 
weeks later, Wailea 670, back on track, 1,400 units.  
Oh, Haliimaile, on track, 670 homes. 

And you know, first of all, I'm against all of 
that for Maui.  It's like who benefits from these 
million dollars lots and this gentlemen's gated 
communities and all this stuff?  Doesn't make any 
sense at all. 

So I just want to stress again I think it's a 
mistake to fall into this kind of thing that's going 
on here and say, well, we want this stream and we want 
this stream because that's just a thing to neutralize 
everybody.  And I think it's counter productive and I 
think everybody is already thinking that way in the 
room anyway.  So that's all I said I had so say.  

DANIEL MORROW:  Aloha.  I ask just for your 
cooperation.  I'm not a resident of Keanae, but I grew 
up in Hawaii my whole life.  And there is a lot of 
good things said here tonight that I heard.  But in my 
life, I'm a white man in a brown man's world.  I don't 
mean to be racial.  My name is Daniel Morrow.  My 
father was Tom Morrow.  And we used to have big 
arguments about the water.  And I used to always talk 
about David Craddick with him.  But I didn't know 
Keanae was in such a bad situation because I left back 
to Honolulu seven years ago.  I've been back to Maui 
for two years.  I work three jobs a day and I just 
quit a job so I can try to run for council. 

But contrary to anybody's beliefs here, you 
guys have more political power than you even think.  
This is a small map here.  You folks are related to 
almost everybody around this whole island.  Because my 
wife is Hawaiian and she related to some of you people 
here.  You guys can control this whole island.  If you 
got one person that can work with you guys and stick 
to one thing and vote them into power and your word is 
there.  Your word is not out here in the community 
meeting.  Your word is in there.  You have to work 
from the inside out.  You have to get somebody inside.  
And that's your political power.  Don't forget it.  
This government is not all that bad.  It's the people 
in the government. 

LUCIENNE DENAE:  Aloha.  My name is Lucienne 
DeNae.  I live Huelo, lived there a long time.  And 
I've been real active here with both the Haiku 
Community Association, I sort of chaired their 
committee on water matters for a number of years and 
was vice chair for a few years and I'm also very 
active with the Sierra Club which has taken some 
strong stands here in the past about Huiwa and 
Makapipi and some of the other places here, Hanawi. 

And I agree with what folks are saying here 
tonight.  It's like it's not a matter of, you know, 
which three streams are the most important, you know.  
I think we need to look at the message that's being 
delivered.  You folks who don't live out here our 
area, listen to the kama'aina, listen to the folks 
that live by the side of the stream because they see 
what's going on in those streams.  And after a hundred 
years of diverting the streams, we're getting changes, 
you know.  I've only been here 15, 20 years and I've 
seen changes, you know.  My neighbor Moki Boy and 
others, they have seen big changes because they have 
been here all their lives.  But, you know, we've got 
to listen to these changes.  Something is happening 
with the underground supply of these streams because 
they don't just all come, you know, from the rainfall, 
they come from underneath, too.  And I'm not a 
scientist or nothing, but just common sense tells us 
if no more fish, if no more water when there used to 
be water most of the year, we're looking at some 
long-range problems here. 

And folks out our way, you know, we want to 
know what the whole story is.  This is a good 
discussion.  We've been talking for years about 
restoring streams and this stream should be restored.  
But the other side of it is what's the rest of the 
picture?  Is the trade-off to have wells all the way 
to Nahiku, too, and dump the water in the ditch and 
have that replace the stream water?  I mean, what's 
being really said here?  I feel like -- kind of like 
only like one part of things is being explained and 
maybe Mr. Craddick can talk about this when it's his 
turn because I think hopefully they tell him 
something. 

I get neighbors calling me up, gosh, I see one 
well going up Kailua, what's it supposed to be?  I 
said, oh, you know, they're just having water problems 
out there, folks haven't [inaudible].  And then I hear 
oh, no, huh-uh, no, we're talking to the guys building 
these wells, huh-uh, this is for a lot of wells out 
here. 

I read in the paper, Haliimaile, they don't 
have water, so the planning commission cannot pass 
them.  Guess what, we might get water from Kailua, 
they say in the newspaper.  Now, I only read the 
newspaper, but I think, you know, if you want to build 
trust among these communities, everybody involved got 
to come out and say what the plan is because 
otherwise, you know, I agree with Mr. Sheehan, he's in 
a good position selling real estate, he knows what 
people will promise, that people are promised 
everything by developers, people are promised water 
that they don't own out in our valley.  This guy 
promised water to, wasn't his water to give and folks 
had to sue to even get any water after he left town 
with his bundle of money.  And this happens all the 
time. 

And personally, I think we shouldn't just be 
talking about East Maui, we should be talking West 
Maui, too.  There is, you know, plenty folks like to 
grow taro there.  Plenty folks live in these valleys 
and would like to have access to the kind of water 
that they had when maybe their grandparents were 
children, but it's not possible right now.  And that's 
something that needs to be addressed, too. 

So I have a little phone line that people call 
at the Sierra Club office and I mean, you can't 
imagine the phone calls we get.  We get them from 
Wailuku, Waikapu, Kahului, Honokohau, whatever, folks 
think the Sierra Club can fix their problem.  I only 
wish it was true.  But what I can do is share with 
folks, our policy makers, that there are problems out 
there with water and basically the system is very, 
very old-fashioned system of like only big 
corporations controlling the water.  And times have 
changed.  And everything has got to change with them. 

Now, like some of the brothers and sisters 
said earlier, I'm not for seeing this dividing people; 
I'm for seeing it bring people together.  It's true, 
there is, you know, you can really point and say there 
has been a rip off.  We need a future that's based on 
something else. 

I was out Makapipi last weekend hiking and I 
was under Hanaiwi stream, they had of course the poor 
little pitiful streams at the road and no more water 
and nothing when you go up, and here's this beautiful 
water coming down and my heart just filled with prayer 
and I said Lord God, let there be a solution so this 
water can return to the land and return to the people 
here.  I'm not Hawaiian, but like the sister said but 
we can all see there is not been a just situation 
here.  So, you know, the streams of our area, so much 
people are really using the streams, Hanawi, Puiawa, 
Ho'olawe Nui, all the streams Huelo, Huelo stream, and 
Waipuaiki stream, Mokupapa, all these streams are 
being used by people. 

First of all, we need them for our water.  We 
don't got county water, we don't get pipes.  If you 
grow anything, use them for that, there is too much 
agriculture going on in this area.  A lot of folks 
resorting to wells because it's the only thing that's 
reliable.  But really for years and years it was the 
streams.  And only rich people can have wells, you 
know.  So it's kind of the dividing line there is like 
my neighbors here, they're not going to put in a well, 
they don't have $30,000 to build a well.  So it's like 
of like the dividing of rich and poor, Mr. Dowling can 
have a well but we can't down here.  We just to -- 
I've seen Moki's taro patch.  He's got to bring the 
sprinklers out there.  It is pitiful.  And I remember 
when that stream there used to have water.  Like I 
said, I haven't lived here this long.  I hiked along 
all that stream. 

Anyway, rambling on and on here, but all the 
streams in our ahupua'a, I mean that [inaudible], 
Pualua, Huelo, Hana, Kailua, Waipuaiki, [inaudible], 
all those streams deserve to have water and at least 
enough for the fish and everything at the ocean side 
to continue because those fish, if there is no water 
coming from those streams, it's like they just don't 
develop.  It's just a different environment down 
there. 

So that's pretty much what I have to say is 
just we do need to stick together and it's not about 
one or two streams.  It's about the whole ecosystem.  
We can't divide things up into little parts.  It's 
like nature doesn't work in little cut out parts.  
Nature works as a whole. 

MR. MORROW:  I know I testified earlier, but 
listening to everybody the spirit is just moving me to 
come up here.  And you know, several things was 
mentioned, lawfully.  I know my father always told me 
that Makapipi stream, if you go up the stream a little 
ways, there is a cement wall that the water legally 
supposed to be going over.  Well, somebody broke the 
wall and there is still no water going over.

Law, lawfully:  What is that?  What is 
legally?  On the way to the meeting tonight is the 
first time I heard about it.  You got to come to this 
meeting.  What is it about?  Oh, they're restoring the 
stream.  Well, after listening to tonight's testimony, 
it's clear to me that you guys shouldn't be telling us 
what streams you're going to put water back into, but 
you guys should be asking us how much water from which 
stream we can give you guys.  You know? 

I heard interim in-stream flow standard.  
That's true.  I thought they did one study a long time 
ago about this interim in-stream flow standard.  
What's happened?  What we should be doing is we should 
be putting an interim in-stream flow standard into the 
people's homes outside there.  This water that going 
in our stream is so valuable to us that we don't even 
make shi-shi inside the water when we swim.  But not 
everybody is like that.  Some people jump in, cold, 
piss the pants.  But that's not us.  We no do that 
because we respect the water. 

But what happened, you guys divert our water, 
you take them outside there, as long as go through the 
meter, you guys gets your bill, you don't care what 
they do with them.  You got million dollars estates up 
Kula screaming we need more water, my grass going dry.  
I was telling you we need them for our taro, we got to 
fight for it?  Brother say we got to be more 
aggressive?  No, I don't think so, brother.  It's our 
nature to be humble.  If it's you guys' nature for 
this steal and keep stealing and steal, steal, steal, 
then so be it.  Because like sister said, come  
judgment day, you got to answer, you know.  We are 
putting in our faith in Almighty above and that's 
where we're going to stand, and we're going to 
continue to be humble and no matter how many times you 
hit us, we're going to keep turning the cheek.  But 
watch out for that Aloha slap that come back because 
not going to come from us.  We the children, children 
of the Lord, and it's our duty for continue to live 
the law.  So you guys cannot hear us, but we humbly 
speak to you and it's your problem.  You got to answer 
for that.  

We got laws, yeah.  Our family got so much 
land, we like [inaudible] but no can.  Because first 
thing they tell us is you need a water meter.  So I go 
see the guy at the county, brah, like one water meter.  
Oh, okay, let's see, that's $1,200 for the hookup and 
$2,500 for the installation.  Can make money in 
stormys.  Well, you going to build a house.  I can't 
even afford the meter, $1,200!  Oh, well, that's how 
we determine if you qualify for money in Stormys, your 
loan application.  What?   That's right. 

Need water, I go rain catchment.  How come you 
guys don't make those [inaudible] use rain catchment?  
They can.  If they like water their million dollar 
grass golf course or their yard or whatever.  Make 
them go rain catchment. 

Here's another thing.  Our shit that go in the 
ground is contaminating the aquifer so we need one 
sewage treatment.  We got septic tank [inaudible].  
When the thing fooey, take it to one sewage treatment 
plant and they cannot redefine them so they pay 
somebody to open the valve and let them directly out 
into the ocean.  Oh, they pump [inaudible] and dump 
them right there.  What's up with that? 

You know the problem is?  We got lazy, we 
never had to walk outside to the outhouse to take our 
shit outside, so we use the water for carry the shit 
outside.  We shouldn't be making people put septic 
tanks; we should be making people dig outhouses in 
their yard.  That's what we should be making them do. 
No use the water.  You guys being disrespectful to the 
water you taking already. 

I getting tired of talking.  Sister said was 
illegal overthrow.  See, the petition of water 
ancestors [inaudible] sent them up to Washington, 
saying no, we no like, common state.  I think somebody 
forgot to fax the letter to the state.  The state no 
believe this.  So they continue business as usual, 
business as usual, so we humbly come and even though 
we oppose, they still go do.  And then we go to 
another meeting and we oppose and they go do.  And we 
oppose, and they go do.  Or we go more [inaudible].  I 
would like to see [inaudible], you guys affected our 
livelihood, I would like you it affect the livelihood 
of the Realtors.  Thank you. 

MR. CRADDICK:  Anybody else?

ELAINE WENDER:  David, can I ask you a 
question?  You said at the very beginning that there 
were things that you were doing now that makes this 
possible and I wondered if you could tell us what you 
meant. 

MR. CRADDICK:  Right now the ag park is taking 
water out of the ditch.  And there is a well below the 
ag park about six miles that could supply the ag park.  
Now, normally it would cost a lot of money to pump, 
but part of that agreement with A&B is to be able to 
get electricity from them.  And doing that, it becomes 
-- if we can get that for all of the pumps at the ag 
park, it becomes no more expensive to use the 
groundwater than it does to use the surface water.  So 
I think that is one thing that the board is looking 
at.  And that was the one thing that I was referring to. 

A VOICE:  Mr. Craddick, you know when this 
thing all started when -- we go back to the 
missionaries and the sugar planters.  When they 
started taking the water out of here, wasn't it only 
supposed to be designated for sugar planters?  And as 
the sugar cane went out, water was supposed to be 
restored?  And then now we're feeding ag parks out in 
Kula? 

I believe in farming, you know, I believe the 
farmers need water, too.  But we have to supply them 
with water.  But wasn't the law stated that whatever 
water taken out was only for sugar cane and now is for 
subdivisions and commercial and other types of 
farming.

MR. CRADDICK:  I can't say I'm that familiar 
with it, with the agreements that allowed the ditches 
to go in.

A VOICE:  Because it seems like it's venturing 
off into something else now, you know, besides sugar 
cane.  And a little bit about Maui Land & Pineapple.  
You know, I've travelled around the world quite a bit.  
I may look like one dork, but I've been around.  When 
people destroy aquifers and get away with, they 
destroy the aquifers on that side, contamination from 
sugar cane or pineapple.  But nobody get fined over 
there.  If one haole and one kanaka maoli go up here 
and dig one ditch and divert that water, he got to get 
one permit or he going to get fined.  But how come the 
plantation no get fined for destroying a most precious 
resource, water?  But that's all right.  We come out 
East Maui. 

Why cannot the county or whoever is in charge 
look at resources on the other side before coming out 
here?  We know it's the easy way out because you got 
the ditches, you got the infrastructure already set 
up.  You guys looking for the easy way.  Why cannot we 
go the other side first and figure out if we can get 
some water to supply the other side.  And try not to 
depend, which we already know, West Maui going dry.  
So everything -- we're going to concentrate in East 
Maui to service everybody else. 

Just by listening, we don't have enough.  So 
if we continue to take from here, we're going to have 
zero.  And it's going to affect the whole island 
eventually.  Because I testified when they started the 
first transmission line on West Maui, they told me no 
way we're going to affect this aquifer.  The first 
36-inch transmission line.  How many transmission 
lines you guys got out there now?  And what kind of 
water you guys pumping?  So if it can affect West 
Maui, who said it cannot affect East Maui?  Do you 
folks have some distance or historical fact? 

You know, these are kind of things I think we 
need to put under consideration and we need to look 
at.  Not only one area.  We put all our marbles in one 
basket and then sink.  And I sure don't want to see 
people on the over side suffer, too, because we all 
know people on the island of Maui.  But I would like 
to know that thing about the plantation when they 
first started this whole operation about taking water 
out of here, if there is a law and why, if there is 
one, why wasn't it enforced and why are we having this 
kind of changes with the county to take more water. 

Nothing against you, Mr. Craddick, personally, 
but we all know what Mark Twain stated, whiskey is for 
drinking and water is to fight over.  Thank you. 

 MR. CRADDICK:  Anybody else? 

JAY PARKER:  Can I ask a question?  So you've 
heard what people think about stream restoration in 
general, but could we ask you guys what you had in 
mind, what the offer is? 

MR. CRADDICK:  I think that that is something 
that the board, once they look at this testimony, is 
going to have to decide.  I can't say for certain any 
final decision has been made --

JAY PARKER:  Some kind of idea must have 
driven this, yeah?

MR. CRADDICK:  I'm quite certain there was.  
Whether I was privy to that or not might be a 
different story.  But I'm quite certain -- Jeff is 
referring to Jonathan Starr here.  Jonathan came in a 
little bit later.  Jonathan is also on our water 
board. 

MR. STARR:  Well, so far the plan has not been 
shared with members of the board in any detail, but 
apparently the Chair has some plan to try to put some 
water back in the streams, which of course is an ideal 
that a lot of people share.  I certainly share the  
water should be put back in the streams. 

I know there are other issues involved and I 
know that one of the things that the board has 
grappled with is the duration, whether short-term or 
long-term plans should be made regarding water 
diversion and stream flow.  And I know that's an area 
that there has been some discussion at the board level 
and I know that there is some thought at the state 
level of perhaps extending the length of time that the 
permits would be issued for.  Right now they're issued 
for one year.  So that may be part of what the 
discussion is about.  But I think that it's really 
coming out here to get a feel for how the community 
feels about their streams and whether they feel that 
the current situation is acceptable or perhaps there 
should be some flows returned to them, and if so, how 
much.  I think that's been answered very clearly. 

A VOICE:  We want it all back.

A VOICE:  We're not stupid, okay. 

NICK NIKHILANANDA:  I live in Huelo and I live 
on Mokupapa stream and the edge of my property, I have 
two and a half acres out there, is where the dam is 
and that's mine and three neighboring properties, our 
water.  And my stream is dry all but about three days 
of the year when they open up the overflow ditch. 

But I want to share something else and it 
follows what Jay said earlier about being skeptical.  
Because I am also a candidate for the County Council 
and I think it's important that there is somebody on 
the inside supporting those of us on the outside. 

But I've got a questionnaire that I got from 
the Board of Realtors and I know how they want me to 
answer and I know how I answered it and I thought I'd, 
just listening to the testimony tonight, share with 
what's going on.  Because to me I think it's what's 
similar to the dam, it's a diversion to allow water 
back into the stream when, as the testimony has come 
earlier, it should be the other way around.  The 
developers and the state and the county should be 
coming and asking how much water can they have. 

And to follow that up, one of the questions 
from the Board of Realtors, and they tell you sort of 
what their position is, it says would I support 
connecting the east of Maui upcountry system with the 
central system.  And earlier you've heard a couple of 
comments about 1,400 houses, 1,200 houses, 600 houses.  
Where do you think that water is coming from?  Why do 
you think the Board of Realtors want to tie in the 
East Maui ditch and system to the central system?  
here is that water coming from?  So be really aware 
of this appearance of -- like me, I want to see -- 
I've lived on streams in Haiku for 10 years and it's 
wonderful when you see water in the stream.  And those 
of you who are living on the stream know how important 
it is.  So be really skeptical this proposal of a 
25-year agreement so that not only Wailea and Makena 
but who knows how further out will be these million 
dollar properties, gated communities, and people who 
when you just said you have a feeling for the people 
on the other side for water, but we're talking about 
thousands of new people to come here for the water 
that already we don't have enough of. 

So just be really between the lines and listen 
to what the proposal is, who's offering it, and why 
it's being offered.  Because you know that the people 
on the other side -- and A&B, god bless them, they 
were an agricultural company, but today they're not, 
they're land development.  And I just read out of it, 
just went on the Internet and I found this institute 
in Michigan talking about A&B is not the only one that 
was in ag for years and that some states and 
communities are forcing them to pay the difference in 
the taxes where they keep this land in ag and then 
develop it and make millions, not thousands but 
millions of dollars. 

So again, be really skeptical, what is this 
being offered.  Because for a hundred and seven years 
things haven't been offered with one hand and not 
being taken with the other. 

A VOICE:  We know that.  We don't even have a 
bus stop for our kids and we live in the rainforest.

NICK NIKHILANANDA:  Anyway, thank you. 

A VOICE:  Can I say one thing?  You know, I'm 
really honored that I can be around these creative 
minds, the people from within this small community who 
come and speak of something really important.  And as 
eloquent as we can be and we can find all the words 
that we can use to divert all the stuff from the main 
stuff.  This guys only here for temporary.  All us 
guys eventually going to -- it's inevitable.  So when 
we going to stop and we going to quit the cheating and 
the manipulating, you know, we were screwed and they 
told us you cannot reapply today, you need to keep 
constantly learning.  You need to constantly be able 
to remind ourselves that as we look at what we're 
doing, we're not talking about children, nobody 
talking about our children.  You know what I mean?  
We're talking about in a maybe unique way that, yes, 
if you speak for ourselves, oh, jeez, we're not going 
to forget our children.  You talking about taking this 
water out to somebody who we don't even know.  You 
know, you talk about alien species.  Alien species 
don't only come in the form of animals or plants.  I'm 
an alien species.  You know what I mean?  So we got to 
watch what seed we're planting in our community.  I 
see that new transmission, I see down Nahiku, somebody 
is clearing the land.  But you no can see.  You got to 
fly in airplane.  I work for an airplane company, I 
fly over and I study the coast line and I get so sad.  
I'm so happy because I coming home Hana, some place so 
beautiful that this is -- who you guys going to do, 
push us guys off the end.  That's the beginning.  Hana 
is the beginning.  That's how I feel real deep in my 
heart.  And I'm real fortunate that I can be there 
working with the school system.  And I wanted to ask 
of Mr. Craddick to -- I like share my [inaudible] and 
the youth.  We been working on a  project in our 
school that we've been trying to get online and 
working with different departments within our 
government structures.  And we teach our children 
about business, about youth entrepreneurship, about 
self-sufficiency, how to become economically 
developed, that thing.  You guys say to us people, you 
know, you got to create ideas.  So as we present our 
ideas, I look around us guys, everybody else is doing 
our ideas, people [inaudible] our culture.  They 
exploiting our culture, they selling us guys off on 
their beautiful cars and advertising.  That's not 
Hawaii.  You got to have a place where the people that 
can -- this beautiful place in Keanae where they can 
come and the people actually live the life and hear 
from them the stories.  Not the stories that we got to 
make up.  When you look at that nice brochure, that's 
the only thing you can read.  It's all about business.  
And you wonder if they really telling the truth.  I 
hear the truth inside. 

Yes, the diversion of the water needs to come 
to some kind of final decision who gets to use the 
water.  I think it's a great idea that we can also use 
the water and say to the people well, you can have 
this much, how much do you folks require?  So you if 
you're going to develop Makena, oh, Makena so sad, us 
Hawaiians got no beach no more.  We going to get 
trespassing for try to get to the beach.  You know 
what I mean?  Trying to cut between somebody's cars.  
You guys know that's not yours, but still you're claim 
on the paper that somebody sell you that I can bear 
full titleship.  You guys tend to ignore how far back 
our resources go.  Prove to me that I'm not Hawaiian.  
You know, you guys say prove to you guys that we're 
Hawaiian.  We try to [inaudible] Hawaiian Homelands, 
stand in line, you wait 20 years and nothing.  And 
does not the water come with the land?  This land that 
we're trying to use that comes in Hana, city land, 
Hawaiian Homelands, through the Department of Land and 
Natural Resources, the lease went up, it became part 
of the Hawaiian Home inventory, home to the most 
infestation of miconia.  If you guys know anything 
about miconia or anything about the pakapari vine or 
the African tulip, you getter get hip because people 
who come in, not going to get the water for, not going 
to get the green trees.  [Inaudible] we going kill 
ourselves for the sake of somebody, strangers to our 
lands.  Costing you millions.  You know, if you're 
going to give in to them, like the sister said, you 
better not be the oppressor because [inaudible] he 
going to give bear the witness on what is fair, you 
know.  So we no help our children wherever we may be 
in any part of our island and treat our nation, I feel 
we're going to be responsible for how [inaudible]  And 
already I can see with my daughter's reaction.  
[Inaudible]  She's go [inaudible] like this or she 
make this, bang, bang, bang.  [Inaudible] love her.  
Come, we go work in the aina.  [Inaudible] animals.  
But we're denied those things.  So in Hana, we go and 
try with our ohana in Hana, [inaudible] I asked the 
county if we could have some creative way of allowing 
us guys to tap into the water system for the education 
purpose.  And they say you come up with $3,400 plus or 
minus, you can have your water meter, 5/8ths inches, 
that's all you going get.  Okay, so I'm ready put my 
money out of my own pocket and put me in the hole, but 
it's worth it.  I don't care [inaudible] we created 
our own nonprofit to umbrella our school and we didn't 
rely on what funding through the DOE have to give to 
our school.  Totally ignore Hana school and Keanae 
school.  It's a place that people come to see us guys.  
They no come for hang out in Kihei, that's the only 
place they get for stay.  When you look at travel on 
this highway, [inaudible] come through here.  
[Inaudible] aloha, whatever remnants we get back.  
[Inaudible] be around.  Because this belong to all of 
us.  And so whatever kind of decision you folks heard, 
go back to you guys' office, got to shirt the spirit 
[inaudible], not only the words but the how.  When you 
go back, I don't know what you guys going to decide, 
but we asking for the water to come back to our 
kapunas and follow the example.  We make mistakes.  
But so this thing is not like one -- we're not doing 
our rocketship or anything like that.  I think maybe 
some other rich people on the other side can look into 
the introduction of maybe desalination, perhaps.  They 
say expensive, well, they do them on submarines in the 
Navy.  They might be an alternative without having to 
-- maybe apua say to us [inaudible], we build all of 
our system, then one day no more water.  And we don't 
know where, what we're going to do.  Can I [inaudible] 
my refund?  Because I don't know, things like that 
could happen.  And I just wish the best for all those 
guys because we're going to get [inaudible].  I like 
this the best.  Maui no ka oi, we always gets together 
so make the changes, so we give some for our kids.  
Maybe work for less so they give you more time with 
our family.  Thank you.

MR. CRADDICK:  One more?

LAURA STRAIGHT:  I'm Laura Straight.  I'm the 
schoolteacher here.  In all the development that we 
hear about, you know, that we don't have a county-wide 
all the time everybody conserve the water, you know?  
Every place, gated communities, Kula, here, I mean, we 
have low flush toilets and little, you know, the 
special shower heads.  This is happening everywhere?  
No.  The people are washing their feet with sand 
before they go into the hotels.  Why do we not have a 
county-wide everybody conserves water. 

MR. CRADDICK:  Is that it now? 

ELAINE WENDER:  David, when you talk about 
that ag park, how much water are you talking about?

MR. CRADDICK:  It's approximately a million 
gallons a day.

ELAINE WENDER:  That's what your framework is 
that you're talking about returning to streams, is 
that all you're talking about?

MR. CRADDICK:  That I know.  Like I said, I 
don't know all the --

JAY PARKER:  Those deep wells are about 2 
million each per day.  So you drill five of these 
quasi-public private wells, you've got 10 million 
coming out.  So if you're going to give us one  
million but take 10 million over here, because see we 
don't really separate the aquifer from the surface 
water, it's all one organism to us.  It's like you're 
taking with one hand and giving with the other hand.  
So it's not going to wash that way. 

MR. CRADDICK:  Anybody else?

RAY PAHUKOA:  Hey, my name is Ray Pahukoa.  I 
was born and raised in Keanae.  And the whole thing 
about this water situation, it's stolen from us.  It's 
about Hawaiian.  And now you know what we got to do 
for it?  We got a lot of politics together.  Okay.  No 
sense in all doing this groundwork.  That's all we're 
doing.  Don't worry man, get the right kind of 
politics and that's it.  Let him fight for us in 
Congress and let's get the water of all streams, why 
one or two streams.  Ladies and gentlemen, looking 
like this ain't going to get us any.  Okay.  Think.  
Do it.  This is the time to do it.  This is the 
[inaudible].  Let's go for it.  And you make a voice 
in that.  Don't say that oh, no matter, the other guy 
going to go the other way.  Brother, get out there and 
vote for it.  Okay.  That's all.  Thank you. 

A VOICE:  You know, I went to that same 
meeting that Mark did today and we sat down and 
listened about this development in Makena.  Ag lots, 
these are ag lots, you know, like kiawe is growing 
there and they are going to have one acre or 
one-and-a-half acre lots and these guys are going to 
make them into tropical landscapes, you know.  This 
case is dry.  Whatever.  And only one guy on that 
council was asking all these questions about water, 
Wayne Nishiki.  He kept saying well, can we hear about 
the water on this?  Is there really going to be water 
for this?  And it was all explained away.  Oh, yeah, 
there is no problem.  The state water resources guy 
came, there is no problem.  There is no problem, you 
know. 

So I think that more of us -- I know it's a 
long drive.  I drove out from Huelo this morning to be 
there.  But if more of us could show up at some of 
these things -- nobody knows that we're out here and 
thinking these things.  I hate to say it, but it's 
kind of true.  And more of us need to go down there 
and say we are concerned about water, we're concerned 
about water from East Maui ending up over in south 
Maui which could use a lot of water if it's developed 
the way people are going.  It's not -- these are 
millionaire's residence.  They're not like little 
people's houses, shacks by the side of the stream or 
by the side of the ocean like used to be in the old 
days out there.  There is going to be no more way for 
people to live there anymore that way like we're 
living Huelo.  You know, we see the millionaires 
coming into Huelo and it's not just that they're 
white, it's like [inaudible] but I don't want to live 
that way.  And I think that people should have the 
choice.  If they want a simple lifestyle, it shouldn't 
be forced that the only people that can afford land 
and get any water are rich people. 

MR. CRADDICK:  Anybody else?

A VOICE:  I got plenty questions but no more 
answers.  I just waiting for the right answers.  We 
all are. 

A VOICE:  When you folks going to meet with 
the kupuna and the monarchy and ask them how much 
you're going to start paying for all this water you 
guys taking. 

A VOICE:  They're not going.  They're just 
going to write us.  That's what it is. 

MR. CRADDICK:  Well, I'm going to end the 
meeting here then if nobody else has anything else to 
say.

A VOICE:  I want to say thank you very much 
all of you who came and I hope we can continue a 
discussion.  And WHEN we leave here, leave here in 
peace. 

A VOICE:  David, what's the next step?  After 
this, what is the next step?  Is it going to be six 
months and something is going to be offered and this 
is what's happening or what's the next step? 

MR. CRADDICK:  I think before the next month 
goes, we're going to have another meeting in Haiku 
area.

A VOICE:  Then they're going to wait for 
election and see who is going to help us. 

JAY PARKER:  Not too many choices, though.  
Wayne Nishiki. 

NICK NIKHILANANDA:  There is others.  I'm out 
here and there is others.  Just what has been say, no, 
thanks, but it's basically true.  Most don't listen.  
What Lucienne just said, most don't listen.  So just 
remember that.  That's what's sad.  That's why I asked 
David what's going to happen.  What's going to happen 
is probably what's going to happen is it's going to 
come back and this is what, you accept it or not.  So 
it makes a difference. 

A VOICE:  You do a lot of talking, but let's 
do the walk, brah. 

CAMERA OPERATOR:   I would like everyone for 
sharing your feelings and your wisdom.  And the reason 
I come here is to tape this to put it out so that the 
rest of the county can see what you have to say.  And 
I heard a lot of wisdom here tonight.  And you know, 
what Lucienne said about if the people down there at 
the county, every time they're considering a new 
development, if they could hear the kind of things you 
say here tonight, they might think twice. 

They're not bad people.  It's just they don't 
hear from regular ordinary people, you know.  If you 
don't play golf, they don't hear from you.  But on the 
phone, talk to them.  Because they're people just like 
you.  And the more you interact with them, the more 
they are going to understand what it's about, what 
life is about.  So thanks for your wisdom. 

JAY PARKER:  Does that go out on public 
broadcasting?

CAMERA MAN:  That's right, this goes on Akaku, 
on channel 45.  Nobody out here probably gets it.  We 
don't get it either.  But I think they get it in Hana.  
Anyway, thanks.

NICK NIKHILANANDA:  Jay, it's public access, 
not public broadcasting.  It's different.  Public 
access.  It's locally produced show.

MR. CRADDICK:  Thank you everybody for coming 
out.

(WHEREUPON, the public testimony was concluded.)

IWADO COURT REPORTERS, INC.