BOARD OF WATER SUPPLY
COUNTY OF MAUI
REGULAR MEETING


Taken at the David Trask Building, Conference Room 207,
Wailuku, Maui, Hawaii, commencing at 9:00 a.m. on
November 22, 2000 pursuant to Notice.

REPORTED BY:  GLORIA T. TAVARES, RPR/CSR #262

ATTENDANCE - Board of Water Supply Meeting, November 22, 2000

Members present:      
Elmer Cravalho, Chair
Clark Hashimoto
Mike Nobriga
Jonathan Starr
Adolf Helm
Howard Nakamura
Bob Takitani

Staff present:        
David Craddick, Director
George Tengan, Deputy Director
Mike Quinn, Fiscal Officer
Fran Nago, Board Secretary

IWADO COURT REPORTERS, INC.

                     * * *

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  The meeting of the Board of
Water Supply will come to order.  There's a slight error on the
clock, it shows one minute in advance.  But it's nine o'clock
by my watch.
Ms. Nago, will you call the roll or make the
introductions of the people who are here?

MS. NAGO:  We have Elmer Cravalho, our chair; Clark
Hashimoto, Mike Nobriga, Jonathan Starr, Adolf Helm, Howard
Nakamura.  For board members we have David Craddick, director;
Mike Quinn, fiscal officer.  Bob Takitani just arrived.  We
have George Tengan, deputy director; Jeff Ing, Kent Smith, we
have Ron Richman, we have Mr. Shishido, and we have Matthew and
Sandra Daniells.  We have Mr. Hoekstra, Peggy Ann Hoekstra,
Issac Hall, Peter Stolle, Tom Pierce, and Glenn Kosaka.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  The quorum of the board is
here.  Can we proceed with the agenda?  The minutes.  Mr.
Starr?

MR. STARR:  Before the minutes, I would just like to
make a comment.  I distributed some mugs that were from the AWW
Hawaii Foundation.  I made a donation sometime back, they sent
me a bunch of mugs.  I like the theme "Water For People," which
is why we are here.  Everyone think good thoughts about getting
water to the people when you use the mugs.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Are you placing a restriction as
to the use of the mugs for water purposes only?

MR. STARR:  No.  Anything that -- the liquid will
have to contain water.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Okay, thank you.  Previous
minutes.  Mr. Nobriga?

MR. NOBRIGA:  I would move that the minutes of
October 26, 2000 reconvened to October 31 2000, be accepted and
that they be reviewed for 30 days.  If there's no corrections,
additions or deletions, that they be put on file.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Is there a second?

MR. STARR:  Second.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Further motion duly made and
seconded.  Moved by Mr. Nobriga, seconded by Mr. Starr that the
minutes be reviewed for a period of 30 days, that there are
absolutely no corrections, additions or same shall be placed on
the file as part of the record.  Any discussion?  All in favor
signify by saying "aye."
(A chorus of ayes.)
Contrary?
(No response.)
Carried.
Is there testimony from the public from any matter
that you wish to discuss at this time?  Mr. Hall?

MR. HALL:  Thank you very much.  Good morning,
Mr. Chairperson and members of the Board of Water Supply.  My
name is Isaac Hall.  I represent the coalition to protect East
Maui water resources.  I'm here on agenda item 6-D and I
submitted a letter to you folks.  I don't know if you had a
chance to look at it.
But I oppose the dedication of the Smith well to the
county for the use as a county well, this is another Dowling
deal whereby the developer builds, constructs a well on his
own, gives it to you folks and wants special treatment.  Wants
to go ahead on the list of everybody else and wants to have the
water, some water rights to him and other places like Pukalani,
Makawao.
I think by now the Dowling situation is something
you did not want to repeat.  I thought I heard the chair say
we're not going to make deals like that anymore.  I request
that you do not get involved with this deal.
In addition to that, this seems to be circumventing
the court orders in the East Maui water coalition case, where a
supplemental EIS has to be done for any well that becomes an
East Maui well.  This one obviously would be if you accept the
dedication.
It would also violate another order where you are
not allowed to hook up to the west Kuiaha tank, it can't be
part of an EM plan well system, which it obviously will become
once you hook the well up to it.  It would be against the
public interest, I think, because you would be putting
Mr. Smith up in front of all the thousands of people on your
waiting list for water meters.
If you are going to do anything like this, have a
public hearing somewhere where all the people around the top of
the list for water meters can come and tell you what they think
of Mr. Smith going to the top of the list just because he's
dedicated a well to you.  I don't think he has any correlative
water rights he can give to you under the Waiahole (phonetic)
decision and I would ask that you not accept this dedication.
It surprises me that he built this well, it's
obviously too big for the subdivision that he has proposed.  It
goes way beyond serving that subdivision, so something funny is
going on with it.
MR. CRADDICK:  It's too small.
MR. HALL:  It's too small.  David corrected me.
Anyway, for all the other reasons I stated, I ask that you not
accept this dedication.
CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Are there any questions or
comments?  Mr. Starr?
MR. STARR:  First of all, I would like to ask staff,
I have not seen the testimony.  Was it distributed?
MR. HALL:  It's a letter.
CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  There's a letter.
MR. STARR:  I think I may not have gotten it.
CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  The chair intended to address
this particular question when that subject matter comes up on
the agenda; but it would be appropriate in the chair's opinion
to indicate it is the intention of the chair to refer this
particular matter for complete study and going over the
questions that you have raised and to keep in a consistent
manner the agreements and the direction that this board has
decided on in working with the East Maui and the Central Maui
water situation, etc.
It's not the intention of the chair that we take any
precipitant action on any proposal that comes before this
board.  Parenthetically, the chair had been indicating to some
staff members earlier that sometimes matters come before this
board and in the interest of rush and in the interest of an
emergency, we got to proceed to take action.  The chair is
adamantly opposed to that kind of an operation.
That kind of an operation opens the door for many,
many nefarious operations and decisions.  So let it be known to
all parties concerned that orderly procedures is the intention
of the chair.  If it means we got to go and have additional
meetings, we do.  If we don't want, we should get out.  Fair
enough?

MR. HALL:  I think I get the drift.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  I hope.

MR. TAKITANI:  Perhaps it would be an appropriate
time that we had a meeting with our consultants Mink and Yuen
to give us an update of the East Maui plan and the
Waiahole/Waikane (phonetic) ditch situation as it relates to
stream flow, etc.  If we can do it within the next month or so,
I think it would be appropriate for us to come to an
appropriate and just decision.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  If there's no objection, should
we request the staff, Mr. Craddick, to contact the consultant
to be available at a regular board meeting during the month of
December, and if there's any conflict in terms of a time
schedule on the part of the consultants, allow us to know and
we can reschedule our meetings so that we can proceed in an
orderly manner.  Thank you very much, I think it's very
pertinent.

MR. HALL:  I would like to be notified of that.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  You are notified right now.

MR. HALL:  Not of the date.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  We don't dare oppose you, you
know that.  We're good friends for a long time and that will
continue.

MR. HALL:  All right.

MR. STARR:  Couple of questions.  First of all,
Mr. Chair, did we not hire a law firm to consult with us on
this matter?

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  That's a very pertinent question
that should come up at that time.  It is the gut feeling of the
chair that that particular decision of the board has not been
finalized or implemented.  Let's talk to the consultant when he
gets here.  You are right.

MR. STARR:  If there's such a firm, they should
report to us at the time as well.  If there isn't, obviously
they can't.  But I would like to know if there is.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  I think there is.  And if I'm
not mistaken, the decision was whether we could hire legal
counsel or not, that counsel would be attached to Mr. Mink's
operation.  A request for information, entirely pertinent.

MR. STARR:  So the request would be to Mr. Mink?

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Yes.

MR. STARR:  Okay.  I have one question for
Mr. Hall.  I know there are a lot of questions here with this
matter, and there were a lot of different issues; but I want to
try to narrow it down to one issue, which I know in the past I
have had a lot of concern with, and just for a minute put all
the other issues aside.
But say this was a well that was going to serve the
system and it was in such a location that for whatever reason
no one had any problem with the location of it or drilling of
it or the legality of it.
But if an area were still in a shortage and the well
were going to provide for the needs of the customers of a
certain developer, would you feel that it would be fair to
force the developer to supply more water than his consumers
were going to use so that that well would ultimately help make
the system adequate, possibly by having 20 percent more or 30
percent more than he was going to use?
Because in the past when this has happened, we have
demanded -- we have given out meters equal to the water that
the well is actually going to produce.  Would you feel it
should be more, or do you feel that giving out the same amount
is fair?

MR. HALL:  The thing that Dowling asked about this
is that the developer wants to go to the top of the list and
have reserved water meters for himself all over Upcountry.  He
is going to dig this well in Haiku, like Dowling dug his in
Haiku, and reserve for himself the right to go to the top of
the list in Kula, Makawao, and anywhere else he feels like it.
And that's what is unfair to the thousands of
people, I don't want to say thousands of people, but the many,
many people on the waiting list that have been waiting for
years and years and years, and these guys want to catapult
themselves to the top just like Dowling did.  That's the
unfairness of it.
And I understand what you are saying, but you are
not really helping anybody out by doing this.  You are just
giving him rights to go to the top of the list, which is what I
thought you folks weren't going to do anymore.

MR. STARR:  Well, I would like to ask, Mr. Chair,
that we create a mechanism for examining the list in full view
and with the help of the community.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  The chair wishes to point out
that the responsibility rests in your committee.  And the chair
has not at any time exercised any discouraging elements with
respect to this question.  This board has in the past
repeatedly gone on record as to the apparent unfairness of the
meter granting processes that have been in operation for a
period of time.
The chair did request of you, Mr. Starr, that during
the election period, that the water board would not be
embroiled in any partisan politics, more particularly since you
were a candidate, so was Mr. Nobriga, it was a gentlemen's
understanding on the part of all of us that we don't become
embroiled.  But the election period is over.  Let's proceed.
Well, no president yet, that might be a question.
Let us proceed with due speed to move in that area;
and second, to proceed to set up the mechanisms for the
evaluation process of our staff and our director and others.
This was a decision made by the board quite some time ago.
Quite some time ago.  Let's get it done.  Let's get it done as
rapidly as we can in fairness to all parties concerned so we
can hit the ground running.  That's your child.

MR. STARR:  With the favor of the chair, I will set
up the committee to look into the list and the priority order
and the issuance of meters and also the evaluation of the
director and staff reports.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Very good.

MR. FUKUSHIMA:  I'm Howard Fukushima.  May I also
remind the board that there's a proposed rule that has gone out
to public hearing which links to the list and procedures in
keeping the list and in implementing the list.

MR. STARR:  Excuse me, but when we held the public
hearing, that rule was not included.

MR. CRADDICK:  Howard --

MR. FUKUSHIMA:  I'm sorry, I stand corrected.

MR. STARR:  I wish what you say is true because
right now I feel --

MR. FUKUSHIMA:  But there is at this time a proposed
rule with this board related to this.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  That's all the rules we
submitted for modification and review, and that's in the
process, but we got them.

MR. STARR:  I don't think there's a proposed rule.
I think we should be clear about it.  I think there should be
one.

MR. FUKUSHIMA:  There's been a proposal for a rule
related to the list that was at the same time as the appeal
process.  The appeal process went to public hearing, as I
understand it, the rule related to the list --

MR. STARR:  Will that rule relating to the list go
to the public hearing?  I'll take that up with the Operations
Committee.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  That's right.  There should be
no reason for any additional hesitation.  We're ready to do
business.

MR. HALL:  Thank you very much.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Hall.
Shall we then proceed with the director's reports?
Director's Report 00-43, request approval of East Molokai
Watershed Partnership.  What's the pleasure of the board?

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Mr. Helm?

MR. HELM:  Move to approve Director's Report 00-43,
approval of East Molokai Watershed Partnership Fiscal Year 2001
Contract with the Nature Conservancy of Molokai.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Is there a second?

MR. NOBRIGA:  Second.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Seconded by Mr. Nobriga.  A
motion was duly made by Mr. Helm and seconded by Mr. Nobriga
for the adoption of the agreement.  Any discussion?  If not,
ready for the question?  All those in favor say "aye."
(A chorus of ayes.)
Contrary?
(No response.)
Carried.
Director's Report 00-44.  The chair would want to
refer this to the Finance Committee.  So ordered.  Director's
Report 00-45.  Same action, Finance Committee.  Director's
Report 00-46, request approval of Agreement Concerning
withdrawal from the Iao/Waikapu Ditch with Alexander &
Baldwin.  What's the pleasure of the board?  Mr. Starr?

MR. STARR:  I have a few questions of staff before I
make a recommendation.  First of all, do we -- what is the
status of the plant up there?  Can we use this water if we get
it?

MR. CRADDICK:  The plant is operational.

MR. STARR:  Do we need this water?

MR. CRADDICK:  In my estimate, for the trouble that
it causes, no.  For the 300,000 gallons that they average,
there's better places to use that equipment.  But that's a
choice of the board.  We have the agreement --

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  May I follow up?  What's the
recommendation of the director?  This communication came from
you.

MR. CRADDICK:  I think this came out in the MOU;
this was part of one of the things in the MOU and we're
following up on all of those items as best we can.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Mr. Craddick, as the chair
recalls, you made reference to this as a result of discussions
during quarterly meetings of the board over a period of time as
to the necessity of this.  That's why the chair has no
objection to deferring it.  But if it is a mere implementation
of a requirement of the MOU, then it is a mechanical process
rather than a substantive one.  If it is already required in
the MOU which was adopted by this board.  Does it implement the
MOU?

MR. CRADDICK:  I believe it does.

MR. STARR:  Mr. Chair, I had pushed for the use of
this Iao water sometime back because I felt that we spent a lot
of money on the plant and it would really help us with the
central system.  However, the way we're getting it now, the
amount is very little and the cost is very high.  And the
agreement under which we're getting it is very difficult
wording.  It's not really written in our favor; it's written on
the other side's favor.
So I would -- I feel it will cost us money to
operate the plant and we're not going to be able to process
much water and there are times we won't be able to process any
water, so I think perhaps we should look into it before
implementing.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  The chair has no objection to
deferring it.  The chair wishes deferred or referred to the
Committee of the Whole.  No objection?  So ordered.
The chair would like to parenthetically remind the
members of this board that the water itself, as the chair
understands, it is for the central area, one utilization or
another, and regardless of the cost of this particular amount
of water per gallon, per thousand gallons, or whatever the case
may be, the net result is, well, it's 5,000 gallons or a
hundred thousand gallons or a million gallons.
It is a contribution to the water shortage situation
in Central Maui, and it is a contribution to the shortage of
the amounts available from the Iao aquifer.  Yes, it is a
costly thing.  I think this is a factor we need to look at, but
I think we need to keep our eyes on the target and on the
need.  There is a shortage.  We avoided it.  This county has
avoided it.  This county has no water to discuss it.
But it is true that we're pumping 85 percent,
approximately, of the amount available and we read and we
follow where projects and developments of potentially massive
consumptions are being approved in this area.  It's going to
come home to us.  Sooner rather than later.  Let's keep these
things in mind.  That's what, Mr. Starr, you have to be working
on in your operations.

MR. STARR:  Mr. Chair, I agree.  My problem is not
that I don't want the water, that we're only getting 300,000
gallons.  But can we look at that in the Committee of the Whole
or some other committee?

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Absolutely.  No problem.  You
and I think alike in most cases, but not always.

MR. TAKITANI:  It may be problematic in that
Mr. Tagorda is the chair and he had to recuse himself from the
situation.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  We'll handle it at that time.

MR. TAKITANI:  One comment.  This whole situation of
development as additional source for the Central Maui system,
and in light of that, there were concessions made by HC&S and
Wailuku sugar to allow us to use the flow.  And so it's a
supplemental source and we agreed that we needed that source,
and so part of the MOU, it was consummated as part of it.
I think we need to look at that and live up to it as
an additional source whenever we can find a source available at
a reasonable cost.  I share some concerns with Mr. Starr there
about the cost, but it is an additional source and we'll face
grave situation with the Central Maui aquifer, Iao aquifer, and
anyplace we can get additional source, then we need to be
looking at and drawing upon it.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  It seems to be a temporary,
short-term thing, together with this long-term vision and
programming of improvements and what have you.
The chair wishes to acknowledge the comments of
Mr. Hall.  With respect to what could be an unfair type of a
situation.  And because a developer or developers may have
funding, access to funding, and therefore they are able to
proceed with projects and require or ask for preferential
treatment or what may be construed as preferential treatment,
and the results being the deprivation of others who have been
waiting a long, long time.  We have got a job.  No question,
got to do it.  It's more costly not to do it.
Old Business.  Committee Report 99-33.  Mr. Niehaus,
but Mr. Niehaus is not here.  Mr. Craddick?

MR. CRADDICK:  He called and said he would not be
able to attend today and if it could be deferred.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  No objection?  So ordered.
Deferred.  Okay, Mr. Nobriga?

MR. NOBRIGA:  Yes.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Communication 99-31, from
attorney John Rapacz on behalf of the Hoekstra family.  What's
the pleasure of the board?

MR. NOBRIGA:  Chairman, I move we grant waiver of
fire protection for the Hoekstras.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Heard the motion.  Is there a
second?

MR. HASHIMOTO:  Second.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Second by Mr. Hashimoto.  A
waiver of the -- the committee report, and the recommendation
therein being adopted and the waiver of the requirement.  Any
discussion?

MR. HOEKSTRA:  My attorney is indisposable,
Mr. Rapacz cannot be here.  However, he did write a memo to the
board explaining once again what it is exactly we're after and
we want to thank the committee for making the recommendation.
We want to make sure that everybody understands what we're
talking about.
What we're asking for, we have a private water
system and fire protection in place; instead of protecting one
lot, that fire protection system now protects three lots.  We
understand the approval of the committee.  The other thing that
we ask is that we be able to divide this lot three ways with
the existing system that's already in place.  I just want to
make sure that it's clear.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Any discussions?  We'll go by
voice vote or is there a request for a roll call?  Voice vote.
All in favor of the motion signify by saying "aye."
(A chorus of ayes.)
Opposed?

MR. STARR:  Nay.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Motion is carried.  Mr. Starr
voted no.
Committee Report 00-02, request of Tom Pierce on
behalf of Donald and Mica McCann.  Mr. Pierce?

MR. PIERCE:  Good morning, Mr. Chair.  Tom Pierce on
behalf of Donald and Mica McCann.  Mr. McCann is present with
me today.  Mr. Chair, since the last meeting, we have written a
letter to you and CC'd a copy to Mr. Nobriga, the chair of the
Oversight Committee.  And this matter was deferred and
additional time because of a general consensus, I believe, that
there needed to be some greater clarification of the committee
report.  We recommended some language.  And at this point, I
don't know what the Oversight Committee's position is on this.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  What's the pleasure,
Mr. Nobriga, the committee wishes to study this more?

MR. NOBRIGA:  We still wish to waive the fire
protection.  But with the question of issuing water meters, we
feel on the same pew and the same hymnal as Mr. Hall, that we
should follow seniority listing for issuance of meters.  We
spoke earlier of addressing that in January of 2001 and being
that it's real soon in coming, if it's going to come, I would
have no objection to deferring this matter.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Deferred.  Any objection?
Mr. Pierce?

MR. PIERCE:  Mr. Chair, we have a major problem with
getting deferred, only because, as you know, this matter
involves a lot of other parties and it has been involved in
litigation, and our ability to get water will help resolve a
lot of those issues.  The trial has been moved into next year;
however, we are pressed up against certain deadlines such as
discovery.  So deferring it into the new year is a problem for
us.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  With respect to the lawsuit you
made reference to, is it a lawsuit against the county?

MR. PIERCE:  No.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Private parties?

MR. PIERCE:  Yes, private parties.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  All the more reason.

MR. PIERCE:  Is it my understanding that the board
and the committee would be in a better position to pass
judgment on the water meter in the new year?  Because the staff
report was very clear that family subdivision agreements that
were signed prior to, I believe, 1993, as this one was, are
entitled to a water meter upon having the proper subdivision
requirements met.
And so the Oversight Committee is stating that they
don't have a problem with the private fire system that we're
proposing.  So it would appear that we meet this grandfather
clause.  And I think Mr. Hall's concern was more with a large
developer that's coming in and possibly taking hundreds of
water meters.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  That may be Mr. Hall's concern
and your interpretation of Mr. Hall's concern.  The chair's
concern is that no new water meters be given before the year
2001, to make assurances that everybody gets treated equally.
Emphasis on "new."  New.

MR. PIERCE:  Would it be possible to -- the proposal
we had in here was no meters shall be issued until the
moratorium, in fact.  Would it be possible to change that to no
meter shall be issued until --

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Until the board approves.

MR. PIERCE:  In other words, we're going to need
board approval, there's no way to --

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Sure.

MR. PIERCE:  And to defer the issue -- I guess what
I'm asking, would it be possible to defer the issuance of the
water meter?

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  The chair is well aware, and
Mr. Pierce, you should be well aware of the wiggle-waggles that
have taken place in the past as it relates to the granting of
water meters and how justifications have been manufactured to
justify the actions of the department.  And when those actions
have been challenged in court and otherwise, this board has
been asked to appropriate monies to go and defend the varied
decisions of people in the administration who did not follow
the decisions of the board.  That's a matter of record.
It's the chair's opinion and the chair's
recollection that you have the distinct distinction of
representing a client who has been injured in that particular
manner.  So if the chair is very sensitive and gun-shy, you
should be able to understand it.

MR. PIERCE:  With that in mind, Mr. Chair, perhaps I
if I could make a suggestion then, would it be possible to
bifurcate this where the board goes ahead and makes a decision
on a private water system or private fire protection system and
we defer judgement as to the second prong, which is the water
meter issue?

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  What's the pleasure of the board?

MR. STARR:  Mr. Chair, I feel that we should look
into this subject all at one time, as we discussed it last
meeting, and really decide whether the board wants to be in the
business of fire protection and agricultural areas rather than
just dealing with one or two wiggle-waggles.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  What's the pleasure?

MR. NOBRIGA:  I move that we do approve the waiver
of fire protection for Mr. McCann.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Is there a second to the motion?

MR. HASHIMOTO:  Second.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  You heard the motion made and
seconded.  In other words, we divide the question into two
parts (a) the motion deals specifically with the fire
protection waiver.  The question of the meter is deferred; no
action on that question.  Any discussion?  Mr. Nakamura?

MR. NAKAMURA:  One quick question.  David, this
subdivision did, in fact, have a deferral of improvements based
upon a family subdivision improvement in the past; is that
correct?

MR. CRADDICK:  That's correct.

MR. NAKAMURA:  My comment, Mr. Chairman, is I
personally have a problem with these -- what I consider to be
creeping approvals.  I think my action will be in that light.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  You heard the motion duly made
and seconded, together with the comments.  Is there a request
for a roll call then or just a voice vote?

MR. TAKITANI:  Request a vote.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  A roll call has been asked for.
Ms. Nago, you want to start from this side or that side?
Either way.

MS. NAGO:  Howard Nakamura.

MR. NAKAMURA:  No.

MS. NAGO:  Robert Takitani.

MR. TAKITANI:  No.

MS. NAGO:  Adolf Helm.

MR. HELM:  No.

MS. NAGO:  Jonathan Starr.

MR. STARR:  No.

MR. NOBRIGA:  Mike Nobriga.

MR. NOBRIGA:  Aye.

MS. NAGO:  Clark Hashimoto.

MR. HASHIMOTO:  Aye.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Are you going to ask the chair?

MS. NAGO:  Elmer Cravalho.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  No.
May the record reflect that the chair has voted no
for the possibility of moving for reconsideration at some
subsequent date.  I'm voting in the majority.
Shall we proceed to the next item?  The Smith
development.  Mr. Craddick?

MR. CRADDICK:  May I get clarification.  That was a
"no" on just the amendment to separate the two items?

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  No, no.

MR. NOBRIGA:  It was "no" for the waiver of fire
protection?

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  It was a "no" on the waiver.

MR. CRADDICK:  I wanted to get it clear.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  That was the motion.
Now we refer to the Smith Development for dedication
of a well.  This is a subject matter that Mr. Hall spoke on,
Mr. Smith, I believe?

MR. SMITH:  Yes.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  The matter is coming before the
board, the chair would like to indicate at this time its
intention and it shall be the action of the chair to refer this
to the appropriate committee to delve into the various
questions that have come about.  Mr. Smith?

MR. SMITH:  I would like to -- I have no objection
to the deferral.  But I would like to make some, I think,
important clarifications.  And that is that there is nothing in
any of my correspondence relative to the proposal or any
inference in the proposal, and frankly, until Mr. Hall spoke
today, I had not contemplated of jumping to the top of the
list.
We had merely used the compensation for the well in
the form of credits for future meters as a way for the board to
acquire this well, which is in concert with the goals of the
strategic plan, which we thought was a win-win for everybody by
virtue of credits for our future use by my company.  We're not
going anyplace and we have no intention of asking to be put at
the top of the list.  I want to make that very clear to the
board.
We think that the idea of participating and
dedicating a well at a discounted price via the dollar amount
of credits that we requested is supporting the goals of this
strategic plan and the board and the chair and other members,
in trying to alleviate the shortage problems that not only
exist in the central valley but Upcountry as well.
We just stand ready to work with the board and if
this makes sense to the board, and we thought it did because
it's in close proximity to the brand-new tank.
And also, frankly, because in consultation with the
board's consultant he indicated, who happened to be by chance
on site prior to the consideration of this going to the board
when he was doing some of his research for the board and asked
to see the well, he indicated, gee, this would be a great
addition to the county system.  And he said I wish it was
bigger.  That was the only thing he said.
It is not larger than the needs for the subdivision,
but it would certainly meet the 20 percent additional criteria
that Mr. Starr has discussed.  Therefore, we frankly see it as
a win-win between ourselves and the county and we're willing to
work along those lines and at whatever pace the board sees
fit.  Thank you.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Thank you.  The chair would have
this referred to the entire board so that when we meet with our
consultant in the month of December this can be an item that we
can bring into discussion.

MR. SMITH:  I would be happy to help you.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Thank you.

MR. SMITH:  Thank you.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Shall we then proceed to the
next item?  Request from Sandy Daniells for relocation of a
water meter.  This deals, I believe, with -- the communication
has come in for Mr. Craddick.  The chair would like to refer
this to the Rules Committee.  So ordered.
Communication from Attorney Victor M. Sher regarding
potential litigation.  Director's 00-40.  What's the pleasure
of the board?  Mr. Craddick?

MR. FUKUSHIMA:  If I may.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Yes, Mr. Fukushima.

MR. FUKUSHIMA:  At this time I would like to request
the deferral of this item to the end of the agenda.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  So ordered if there's no
Committee reports.  Strategic Planning Committee.
Mr. Nakamura?

MR. NAKAMURA:  Mr. Chairman, I move for the adoption
for the committee report and the approval of the strategic plan
(Mission statement, vision, values, goals and objectives), and
that staff prepare an action plan for review and approval by
the board to include appropriate public review.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Is there a second?

MR. HASHIMOTO:  Second.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  You heard the motion duly made
and seconded for the adoption of the committee report and all
the recommendations.  Seconded by Mr. Hashimoto.  Are you ready
for the question?  All those in favor say "aye."
(A chorus of ayes.)
Contrary?
(No response.)
Carried.
Proposal from administration.  Communications
00-50.  Finance Committee.  That's for the purchase of the
floor.  Other Business, discussion/possible action regarding
settlement authorization of claims and lawsuits, Basil Milan
vs. David Craddick.

MR. FUKUSHIMA:  If I may, Mr. Chairman.  The
attorney from our office who was handling this matter is
indisposed and he is requesting a deferral on this matter.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  If there's no objections,
deferred.

MR. STARR:  Mr. Chairman?

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Yes, Mr. Starr.

MR. STARR:  I was slow off the mark here on the
previous communication.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Which one?

MR. STARR:  The one about the proposal from the
administration.  May I ask a question relating to that?

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  We shouldn't, but for you today,
and I say today --

MR. NOBRIGA:  Only today.

MR. STARR:  Are any of the committees examining
potential new locations?

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  This would be within the scope
of your Finance Committee, and the chair is aware that you have
been religiously meticulous in attending the meetings of the
Finance Committee.  So I'm sure that Mr. Rice will give you
appropriate attention and will be looking at a whole variety of
places.

MR. STARR:  The Finance Committee.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Mr. Rice's committee, the
Finance Committee.

MR. STARR:  I do enjoy them.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  They are good, and I'm sure all
of your contributions have been properly noted and appreciated
for the depth of the considerations and presentations.

MR. STARR:  Yes, sir.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  And has been given due accord
and due recognition.
Shall we go on to the next matter?  Iao aquifer
data.  Mr. Craddick?  Staff?

MS. NAGO:  David, have her sit here, otherwise we're
not going to pick it up.

MS. KRAFTSOW:  I did not really have anything
further to add to it.  I think the gist of it is that the
transition zone is continuing to rise.  Are there any questions
or comments?

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  There are none.  So ordered.
Mr. Starr?

MR. STARR:  I would like to read into the minutes
and make sure that all the board members are aware that
although we have reduced pumping in the Iao aquifer to the kind
of levels that we would like to see, we're still seeing the
transition zone, where the salt meets the freshwater, is rising
and the water levels are still dropping, which means it looks
like Iao has not reached equilibrium yet but it's still a
negative downward trend.

MS. KRAFTSOW:  One other thing is it's also true
that the rainfall has continued below average.  So it may have
some --

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  How long does it take for the
benefits of the rainfall to become an apparent percolation
period, if any?

MS. KRAFTSOW:  Apparently it varies a lot from
aquifer to aquifer, and I couldn't say what the time is for
Iao.  I'm not sure if the USGSA knows.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Approximately:  a day, a week, a
month, a year?

MS. KRAFTSOW:  It can vary from a few days to ten,
depending on the aquifer, on the years.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  With specific reference to the
Iao aquifer, is there any data?

MS. KRAFTSOW:  I could not answer that question.  I
can look and see.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Any other questions?
Mr. Craddick?

MR. CRADDICK:  Can I get your attention to page 133?

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Depends on what you want to talk
about.

MR. CRADDICK:  Casual observation here.  Let's take
the Waiehu deep monitor well, which is the third one down on
page 133.  If you notice the low point of every year, how far
it goes down, you notice last year was extra low.  It was extra
dry.  This year here it started raining in about July.  Keep in
mind that's September.  You can see that it looks like it's
already stopped going down for the year.
So if in December we see that rising or continuing
to rise, which it looks like almost all of these wells are
doing here, we're going to have -- see a year where the low
point is not as low as the previous year.  So that indicates to
me that there's a quicker recovery, which is in keeping with
the aquifer test that we did with John Mink.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Provided, however, that at the
end of the rise, you have come back to where it started from,
so even though you do have a rise, it isn't enough to increase
your reserve that much.

MR. CRADDICK:  That's true.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  It's like a person who is losing
a thousand bucks a day, and he says he stemmed his loss because
he is only losing 900 now.
The concern I think that this board has had, I think
Mr. Craddick has had, for an adequate continuous supply is very
valid.  We got to look at it and bring it to question -- the
chair has indicated and discussed the cost.  What are we
talking about?  This long-term need that has to be met and the
cost therefore.  We are rising but we have not reached heaven
yet.

MR. TAKITANI:  Do you have any idea what outstanding
commitment or value is as to the outstanding permit request, as
to how many gallons would that equate to, as far as
outstanding?

MS. KRAFTSOW:  I think it's in your staff reports
right now.

MR. TAKITANI:  Tell me how much.

MS. KRAFTSOW:  It comes up to about a third of a
million gallons.

MR. STARR:  In other words, equal to the Iao
stream.  Could I take that one step further?  I see we have --

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  I said only one time for you,
but for you --

MR. STARR:  Pretty please.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  For you.

MR. STARR:  I see we have the planning director
here.  I was wondering if he has any way of giving us an idea
of how many housing units or meter units we're looking toward
regarding development for which permits have been issued in
South Maui, in Central Maui.

MR. MIN:  I don't have that information with me.  We
can put it together for the board.

MR. STARR:  I would like to see that.  I know it
will be rough, but to give us some idea of whether we're
looking at hundreds, thousands, millions or what.

MR. MIN:  Sure.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Any other questions of the
subject matter?  If not, shall we proceed to the next item on
the agenda?

MS. KRAFTSOW:  May I make one little clarification?

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Yes, ma'am.

MS. KRAFTSOW:  The question that Mr. Takitani
asked.  Actually, that's just water reservations that have been
accepted.  Because when we answer the Planning Department about
permits, we tell them no guarantee of water is granted or
implied.  The number I'm giving you is outstanding reservations
for water, but in terms of -- represented by permits and
approvals, it would be high.

MR. TAKITANI:  Do you have any idea?

MS. KRAFTSOW:  We can put it together for you.  I
would hesitate to -- there are some large developments out
there like Wailea 670, but we do kind of estimate -- there have
been no commitments of water yet, but we do estimate with each
review, what each thing would use.  So we can go back and put
together a back count.  But it would take awhile.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Let me see if I understand you
completely.  Projects that may have been approved but without
any water commitments.  Would that be a correct statement for
me to make?

MS. KRAFTSOW:  I think so.  The water is not
considered guaranteed until they actually applied or received a
meter.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Building permits may have been
granted?

MS. KRAFTSOW:  Discretionary permits.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  To your knowledge, has there
been representation from the department into the meetings of
the Planning Commission or Planning Department?

MS. KRAFTSOW:  We put this information in our
letters and we make ourselves available for when they request
them.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Has the department and/or staff
expressed any kind of concerns with respect to any projects
that have been planned or requests have been made for
approval?

MS. KRAFTSOW:  Yeah, depending upon how far back you
go, how stridently those concerns were expressed.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Just say 12 months.

MS. KRAFTSOW:  We typically express concern, but
what we found is that for a while it seemed more effective --
well, the last 12 months can be explained by going further back
than the last 12 months.
But for a while we actually started recommending,
and this was more Upcountry, but also with the shortage in
Central Maui when the sustainable yield issue was raised with
the commission, we started recommending denials, and it wasn't
really paid attention to at the time.  So we tried another
tactic which was, okay, we'll give you an estimate of how much
water we expect the permit would use.
We have been doing that consistently for years now,
so that you guys are the land use decision makers, here is how
much water it will take, you decide what is acceptable.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  In your judgment, do we have
enough water to meet the potential consumption demand for all
projects that have already been approved?

MS. KRAFTSOW:  I don't think -- okay.  If you are
talking about everything that was approved for the community
plan level --

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  No, no, the Planning Department
and/or land use or whatever else.  Here is the green light,
go.

MR. CRADDICK:  The answer is no.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Do we have enough water?

MR. CRADDICK:  The answer is no.

MS. KRAFTSOW:  I was going to break it down by this
level, this level, this level, but basically he's right.  The
answer is no.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  That's all I needed to know.
Any other matter to come before the board?  Mr. Nobriga?

MR. NOBRIGA:  Are we going to revisit Communication
00-04?

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  It was placed at the end.
00-40, Mr. Fukushima.

MR. FUKUSHIMA:  This is a request from Vic Sher who
is a partner in a firm that handled the DBCP lawsuit for the
board.  He has requested that this matter be discussed in
executive session.  It's relating to a potential conflict
between a client for a party that he was talking -- that his
firm is talking to of possible representation of a conflict
with his representation to the board in the DBCP lawsuit.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  The chair is going to suggest or
recommend that this goes to the Committee of the Whole, because
the chair has an aversion to executive sessions.  And at that
time -- the Committee of the Whole, we have a different person
presiding.  That's the way.  That is the way.

MR. FUKUSHIMA:  So the chair is referring this --

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  To the Committee of the Whole.

MR. FUKUSHIMA:  No problem.

MR. STARR:  Mr. Chair, before we go, one last
thing.  I'll be holding some meetings in my committee in the
next month and I would like to have a court stenographer at
those meetings.  I know we had the matter before the board, and
if we go before the Finance Committee --

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Goes before the Finance
Committee.

MR. STARR:  It did go before the finance and they
said it could be handled out of the budget without any --

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Then there should be absolutely
no problem.  There should be no problem.

MR. STARR:  I would make it clear, I would like to
have a stenographer at the meeting.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  There are many things all of us
would like to have.  I'm sure Mr. Gore would like to be
proclaimed president, so would Mr. Bush, and so would
Mr. Starr, but we don't get all of our wishes, but I agree with
you.

MR. STARR:  Thank you.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  No problem.  If there are no
objections, meeting will be adjourned.  Mr. Craddick will
contact our consultants to see if they would be available for
our next board meeting.  Mr. Deputy Director?

MR. TENGAN:  I would like to make a short report on
Iliahi Nauwe from Molokai.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Speak.

MR. TENGAN:  The board director needs to follow up
on this project.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Okay.

MR. TENGAN:  I'm sorry I don't have a written
report, but I made copies of the communications from corp
counsel to the bonding company.  Basically after the board
assigned the task to me, I went out to Molokai to look at the
project area and it's my determination that the work has to be
done on it, on the project.
I guess the problem now is how do we get the bonding
company to honor the bond and proceed with the corrections.  I
also wrote a letter to the bonding company; I did not get any
response.  We have had telephone contacts with the bonding
company; we did not get any responses to that too.  And now we
have a letter from corp counsel with a copy going to the
Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs and also to Wayne
Metcalf, the insurance commissioner for the state.
Hopefully we can get some kind of reaction from the
bonding company.  If we don't, based on his letter from corp
counsel, there's a deadline of December 4th and at that time I
guess you would have to formulate some kind of recommendation
to the board as to what action you should take.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  Mr. Starr?

MR. STARR:  If my memory serves me well, I thought
the board had acted to get it fixed if we could not get an
immediate response.  I do hope that no more time is wasted and
when December 4th rolls around that some kind of action is
taken, not to look at more legal action but to get the road
fixed for the -- the people over there are suffering.

CHAIRMAN CRAVALHO:  The chair's recollection is
precisely what you did make reference to, and that the efforts
and the involvement of the department was to get the project
completed and it was not contingent upon the reaction of the
bonding company.  The reaction of the bonding company, whether
we collect from them or whether we don't, that was not the
deciding factor as to whether this work should go ahead.
Mr. Craddick, if you get the department, that's the
understanding of the chair, that, hey, let's do it.  We collect
after, if necessary, but let's not make this thing contingent.
What if the bonding company does not take action for the next
ten years, both you and I will be gone.  Okay?  No objection?
So ordered.
Happy Thanksgiving to everybody.  We'll see you in
time.

(The deposition concluded at 10:00 a.m.)

IWADO COURT REPORTERS, INC.